I
izoid
Guest
I thought we were going to talk about the sufficiency of Christ. Now it seems that you are on assurance of salvation. Why do you keep changing the subject Adam?
Please provide a definition of “sufficiency of Christ”.
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Please provide a definition of “sufficiency of Christ”.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Both you and Zee are in my doghouses; therefore, I will not be responding to you or Zee.
I am exercising my good old free will in ignoring Zee and Izoid.
I
izoid
Guest
At least it is a cute doghouse.Both you and Zee are in my doghouses; therefore, I will not be responding to you or Zee.
http://img4.coastalliving.com/i/2008/01/pets-dog-house-l.jpg?400:400
I am exercising my good old free will in ignoring Zee and Izoid.
I guess I should take it as a complement as it appears that you don’t like to talk with people who hold you ACCOUNTABLE for what you say. I love you anyway.
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SteveGC
Guest
Um…don’t you mean…‘those who God has preordained and chosen to believe’ ? Otherwise, you’re sounding like you’re not embracing your own doctrine.
Let’s rejoice, meaning…all of us elected, predestined saved souls should rejoice, right? Are you identifying others as being elect?
Who is ‘we’? All of us? All of us who believe? All of us who God has chosen? Who are you talking to, 2A?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Who are the elect and the predestined ones? Aren’t they the ones who grow in love and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ? Only God knows who are His.
Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8
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SteveGC
Guest
So, if these things are required, and also granted…then it is a cooperation between man and God, is it not? For how can something be “required” if we do nothing as a result of this “requirement”? I agree with everything you say here…except for your conclusion that the “requirement” is nullified by the “granting”…else why call it a “requirement” at all? Better word might be “predestined”?
At this point, I truly believe you have no idea how to explain this relationship between man and God “sufficiently”.
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izoid
Guest
I thought you believed in assuarance of salvation. Was I wrong?
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SteveGC
Guest
I fully agree. What I’m confused about is how you’re apparently identifying yourself already as one of the elect, and also identifying other people (“Let us rejoice in Christ’s work”) who are elect…and yet you affirm (correctly) that only God truly knows. Also, you say Christ is sufficient** for those who believe**, but that sounds an awful lot like we have to freely choose in order for this sufficiency to be applied to us (which I agree with, but you have posited earlier that you don’t).
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crisco
Guest
ok, I’ll bite.
Let’s see here…sufficiency of Christ’s work for sinners…hmmmm.
Well, the Prot/reformed position is that of imputed righteousness - whereby I don’t actually become righteous. Instead, I claim Christ’s righteousness via faith (i.e., I’m clothed in the righteousness of Christ), in order for God to accept me.
The Catholic position is that of infused righteousness - whereby I become ontologically righteous through faith. God actually cleans me up on the inside. Which one seems more sufficient to you?
Additionally, the Prot/reformed position rests on penal sub - whereby Christ’s death on the cross is a part of God’s mechanism to sufficiently punish the sins committed by the elect. The Catholic position sees Christ’s work as an act of supererogation to provide infinite merit that is infinitely greater than the debt our sins had accumulated. The latter position seems overly sufficient, if anything.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think as Christians, we worship together corporately with other Christians. Because we are growing in our love for God, we have assurance that we are one of the elect of God, because we are loving God through Christ. Peter tells us to make our calling and election sure, right? There is an active pressing on, struggling forward through His resources in our journey. We cannot know who are the sheep and goats in our respective Christian communities, but we receive each others as sheep based on whatever our particular community determines (imperfectly) to be a professing sheep. When we fall outside the bounds of what our particular community determines to be a visible sheep, we are disciplined or even ex-communicated with the intent to restore those who have to be ex-communicated. We must choose to love God and obey God, but it is God working us to cause us to do the things that please Him. We by faith access God’s enabling means of grace to be strengthened in our spiritual journey. So, for the Protestant, our means of grace is Scripture, prayer and the sacraments. Could that be said for Catholics too? I think so, but in different emphasis from a Protestant. When I speak of Christ being sufficient for us, it is still a life of repentance and faith… repenting of our sins, and returning to faith in what God has done for us in Christ (1 John). We know faith pleases God, and we walk by faith and not by sight. Actually, I find orthodox Catholic theology to be very good in all honesty. However, IMO… many Catholics appear to miss it. I think the same thing can be said about modern day Protestants too, who try to walk the Christian life from their own strength and own resources. Why we get hung up on free will seems to be caused by our different views of the new birth and regeneration.
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. Peter
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2nd_Adam
Guest
We both agree that God will make us righteous, because it is the ministry of the Holy Sprit to transform us into the image of Christ. It is a lifetime process. However, our position or standing beforre God is always based on the perfect righteousness of Christ, which is required. If you are basing your relationship with God on your progress in the Christian life, then you are basing yoru relationship on an imperfect righteousness. I believe God requires a perfect righteousness today, tomorrow, and forever to have God as your Heveanly Father. So, yes it does come down to imputation. How can you guys enter the sabbath rest found in Christ alone if your peace with God is based on your progress in personal holiness and obedience? All Christians struggle with sin in this life. I don’t see the official Catholic view to be damnable or a works righteous salvation when properly understood. However, I do see the Catholic view to have a negative effect for your growing love and affecton for God.ok, I’ll bite.
Let’s see here…sufficiency of Christ’s work for sinners…hmmmm.
Well, the Prot/reformed position is that of imputed righteousness - whereby I don’t actually become righteous. Instead, I claim Christ’s righteousness via faith (i.e., I’m clothed in the righteousness of Christ), in order for God to accept me.
The Catholic position is that of infused righteousness - whereby I become ontologically righteous through faith. God actually cleans me up on the inside. Which one seems more sufficient to you?
Additionally, the Prot/reformed position rests on penal sub - whereby Christ’s death on the cross is a part of God’s mechanism to sufficiently punish the sins committed by the elect. The Catholic position sees Christ’s work as an act of supererogation to provide infinite merit that is infinitely greater than the debt our sins had accumulated. The latter position seems overly sufficient, if anything.
Romans 5
Peace with God Through Faith
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation
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Shannon9791
Guest
Here’s the thing, you want us to answer one question, but when we attempt to figure out what you mean when you say something you avoid and try to bring it back to the OP. You make claims and then when asked to expound on them you either blame us for not being able to “make the connection” or flat out refuse and try to force the thread back to the OP. Why not try answering some of our questions? You ever stop to think that we could be getting around to answering your question, but we have to try to understand where you’re coming from first?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think these are all historical issues in regards to our differences. The sufficiency of Christ is about our theologies which has caused our division for almost 500 years. They are historical positions in which we can study outside of our respective postings. If I would summarize our differences, I truly believe the gospel can be summarized by adoption through propitation. If anyone wants to study outside of our limited thread, please go to monergism.com to understand the Protestant perspective.
monergism.com/
:harp::hug1:
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
You’ve referenced in other threads that Adam and Eve had a free will but post-Fall, humanity became utterly depraved. If our Original sin–note it was not a mere declaration of sin but so bad it deformed us ontologically–then why would a mere declaration of righteousness been sufficient for something that is inwardly wrong?
Furthermore, if God declares a man whom is not inwardly righteous but declares him as such, doesn’t that make Him just?
Also, since we’ve established that humanity is ontologically totally depraved, what does that say about Jesus Christ who was both God and man? As a man, was God under the devil, having no choice but to sin continually and put the wrath upon Himself? No, Scripture tells us that He was alike in all ways but did not sin but using TULIP, God must sin as human.
As for forensic justification, whether God choose to look at Christ instead of us, there is still the real matter of sin. If it’s a declaration but not an inward change, then God’s plan for salvation failed. Man still reigns supreme.
Hence, Calvinism is not a higher view of God but only of man. He worships a God who cannot fix the problem of sin.
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crisco
Guest
I’m afraid you’re conflating ontologically righteous with behaviourly righteous.
This ontological righteousness - merited by Christ, and Christ alone, is what makes my standing before God. My progress in the Christian life is acheived in me by the Grace of God, not my own efforts (as your reply seems to intimate).
If I’m in Christ - then I’m a part of His family, an adopted son, an heir - his HS transforms my behaviour (works) to reflect and make real my incipient/inchoate faith that has been given as a free gift.
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Shannon9791
Guest
I am not trying to discuss historical issues with you, I’m trying to get at the heart and soul of what you are saying. You said you believe in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of scripture. I asked if Scripture says scripture is sufficient. Your answer to that question would then lead me to other questions I have, all trying to get at what you believe. I’m trying, as others have before me, to dialouge with you to hash out some real things. Because I have yet to answer your question, I will go ahead and give you my answer, in hopes that you will then answer what I have asked you.
I believe that Christ could be wholly sufficient if He wanted to be, BUT He wants us to work at our salvation. St. Paul says it should be worked out in fear and trembling. Jesus Himself tells people in numerous places throughout the Gospels different things they must do to get to Heaven, and not one time does He say “You know what ya’ll? I got this whole salvation thing for ya, ya’ll just sit back and I’ma handle this for ya.” I hope this helps.
Now please, answer my question.
If you believe in the sufficiency of Scriptures as you stated you do, where does it say that in Scripture?
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crisco
Guest
exactly! If the original problem was ontological shouldn’t the solution be ontological as well?
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fhansen
Guest
I honestly think it’s a lower view of* both *God and man. In Catholicism, man is great because, while he’s fallen he still retains the image of God in part -short of His glory but still with dignity and not so completely depraved- and from there he has the potential to contribute to his own future greatness that God desires to elevate him to. God really loves mankind.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
nods Agreed.
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Shannon9791
Guest
WORD!!!
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