The sufficiency of Christ

[izoid]

Yes indeed Zee, the hypocrisy is telling. It is telling how a persons true nature and intentions become clearer the more they speak. Adam first approached these threads of his attempting to paint a picture of unity between Catholics and Protestants in an attempt to get us to read his propaganda. When that did not work and his churches teachings were revealed he has slowly turned into the very person that he denied existed within his Calvinist ranks. He indeed sows discord amongst us and his true nature and beliefs is coming to light. His initial acceptance has certainly unraveled to reveal the true arrogance of his stance.

There is no question that some major differences exist between the LDS and Protestants and Catholics, we cannot pretend that they do not. Our theologies are in conflict with one another on certain key issues. That does not, however, need to lead us into hateful language that will inevitably drive us both away from discussing those differences.

 

[Shannon9791]

Hey 2nd, are you not answering my questions? I’m still trying to get an answer out of you for some things you said yesterday. I’ll be more than happy to repost them if you need.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have never been in an Arminian based church and I can assure you there have been many a fruit inspector in the churches, all Calvinist, that I have been associated with.

Please share with me what Reformed churches that you attended for the last 20 years.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey 2nd, are you not answering my questions? I’m still trying to get an answer out of you for some things you said yesterday. I’ll be more than happy to repost them if you need.

Could you please repost, thanks!

 

[Shannon9791]

I am not trying to discuss historical issues with you, I’m trying to get at the heart and soul of what you are saying. You said you believe in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of scripture. I asked if Scripture says scripture is sufficient. Your answer to that question would then lead me to other questions I have, all trying to get at what you believe. I’m trying, as others have before me, to dialouge with you to hash out some real things. Because I have yet to answer your question, I will go ahead and give you my answer, in hopes that you will then answer what I have asked you.

I believe that Christ could be wholly sufficient if He wanted to be, BUT He wants us to work at our salvation. St. Paul says it should be worked out in fear and trembling. Jesus Himself tells people in numerous places throughout the Gospels different things they must do to get to Heaven, and not one time does He say “You know what ya’ll? I got this whole salvation thing for ya, ya’ll just sit back and I’ma handle this for ya.” I hope this helps.

Now please, answer my question.

If you believe in the sufficiency of Scriptures as you stated you do, where does it say that in Scripture?

I even put the post where I answered your question because I’m in a good mood.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes indeed Zee, the hypocrisy is telling. It is telling how a persons true nature and intentions become clearer the more they speak. Adam first approached these threads of his attempting to paint a picture of unity between Catholics and Protestants in an attempt to get us to read his propaganda. When that did not work and his churches teachings were revealed he has slowly turned into the very person that he denied existed within his Calvinist ranks. He indeed sows discord amongst us and his true nature and beliefs is coming to light. His initial acceptance has certainly unraveled to reveal the true arrogance of his stance.

There is no question that some major differences exist between the LDS and Protestants and Catholics, we cannot pretend that they do not. Our theologies are in conflict with one another on certain key issues. That does not, however, need to lead us into hateful language that will inevitably drive us both away from discussing those differences.

http://www.gerrymay.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/in-the-doghouse.jpg

Hey Izoid, you’re back in my doghouse due to such apparent personal attack. We should discuss doctrine instead of making judgment of character and of the heart of another. I might consider discussing things with you in about a month. In the mean time, here’s a good verse to mediate on while being in my doghouse.

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - 2 Tim

 

[izoid]

Please share with me what Reformed churches that you attended for the last 20 years.

Once again you twist and contort what I said. I did not say Reformed, I said Calvinist. The Reformed church is not the only church that follows Calvin and his teachings.

 

[izoid]

http://www.gerrymay.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/in-the-doghouse.jpg

Hey Izoid, you’re back in my doghouse due to such apparent personal attack. We should discuss doctrine instead of making judgment of character and of the heart of another. I might consider discussing things with you in about a month. In the mean time, here’s a good verse to mediate on while being in my doghouse.

So it is OK for you to attack Zee and his beliefs but when I call you on it I go to the doghouse? What is the definition of hypocrisy?

Please keep me in your doghouse as I find conversing with you to be fruitless.

PS. THat can’t be me, I use a Mac.

 

[izoid]

You would do well to heed your own advice. That verse is the perfect rebuke for everything that you have done and failed to do in your postings on this website.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So it is OK for you to attack Zee and his beliefs but when I call you on it I go to the doghouse? What is the definition of hypocrisy?

Please keep me in your doghouse as I find conversing with you to be fruitless.

I share the truth in love with Zee so he would repent of his false Mormon gospel and turn to the historic living Jesus Christ. I do this as an act of kindness. To conisder staunch Momons to be your brothers and sisters in Christ is an unkind act, because you give them a false hope and false assurance in the different gospel that they proclaim.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Gal 1

 

[izoid]

I share the truth in love with Zee so he would repent of his false Mormon gospel and turn to the historic living Jesus Christ. I do this as an act of kindness. To conisder staunch Momons to be your brothers and sisters in Christ is an unkind act, because you give them a false hope and false assurance in the different gospel that they proclaim.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Gal 1

Now you are sounding much more like the “fruit inspector” Calvinists that I once associated with.

You are sounding more like John MacArthur and James White every time you post.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Once again you twist and contort what I said. I did not say Reformed, I said Calvinist. The Reformed church is not the only church that follows Calvin and his teachings.

That’s exactly why I have troubles with your credibility of being an apparent Calvinist. The word Reformed is the same things as being in a Calvinist Church. Why are you unwilling to post what church that you attended? I find that you may be hiding something.

 

[Shannon9791]

That’s exactly why I have troubles with your credibility of being an apparent Calvinist. The word Reformed is the same things as being in a Calvinist Church. Why are you unwilling to post what church that you attended? I find that you may be hiding something.

Still waiting for you to answer my post…

 

[2nd_Adam]

Now you are sounding much more like the “fruit inspector” Calvinists that I once associated with.

You are sounding more like John MacArthur and James White every time you post.

Your postings are way off the mark with lack of biblical discernment. I am discerning the official Mormon gospel which can be read on lds.org. Either the apostasy is true, and God restored the apostate church through the Angel Moroni and Joseph Smith, and God is using the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to restore us apostates back to God, or the Mormon gospel is false. Zee is not a cafeteria Mormon, nor is he rejecting the Mormon gospel. Zee is a staunch orthodox Mormon, proclaiming the Mormon gospel on Catholic Answers. Thank God there are grounded Catholic Christians who undestand what is at stake here and are obedient to contend for the faith againist the Mormon gospel. We are called to speak the truth in love for those who put their hope apart from the truth of the gospel and the historic living Jesus Christ.

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints - Jude 3

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. - 2 Cor 11

Catholic Answers material on Mormonism:

**Inside Mormonism: What Mormons Really Believe **

Do you know what Mormons believe about God, Jesus Christ, and salvation? If not, you’ll be shocked when you discover their true beliefs.

Incredibly, Mormons believe God was once a mortal man living on another planet. They also believe that if they’re good Mormons, they’ll become gods of their own world someday.

That’s just a small sample of what you’ll learn about Mormonism when you read this fascinating new book, Inside Mormonism: What Mormons Really Believe. It’s written by a former Catholic priest who converted to Mormonism and then reconverted back to Catholicism once he discovered the errors and contradictions in Mormonism. Now he’s dedicated to defending the Catholic faith and explaining the truth about Mormonism so other Catholics won’t make the same mistake he made.

After reading this comprehensive volume, you will possess an enviably-thorough understanding of Mormonism. And you’ll have a solid reference that you can lean on to resolve virtually any dispute over the facts about what Mormons believe.

**When Mormons Call **

Have you ever answered your front door to see two young men dressed in white shirts and black ties wanting to talk to you about Jesus Christ? They’re part of the legions of well-trained Mormon missionaries who go all over the world spreading the false doctrine of Mormonism. Finally, a handy book has been written just for Catholics who want to know what to say to these polite but misinformed young men. In this brief, easy-to-read handbook, you’ll find everything you need to rebut what the missionaries are trained to say to you. Isaiah Bennett, a former Catholic priest who converted to Mormonism and then reconverted to the Catholic faith, wrote this book. His inside knowledge of Mormonism is indispensable in answering the many errors and contradictions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

[2nd_Adam]

I even put the post where I answered your question because I’m in a good mood.

I’m sorry for the delay, but Izoid and Zee are quite the distraction. Can we start with this? I notice that many Catholics like to quote out of context “faith without works is dead” and “work out your salvation in fear and trembling…”. Now look at this verse in a bigger context…

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Phil 2

The two yardsticks which measure the love of God for us in the New Testament are the doctrines of adoption and propitiation. Christ is sufficient to secure our eternal adoption; in addition Christ is sufficient for full atonement because He bore the wrath of God for our past, present, and future sins (Christians only). The cross is a full atonement which He actually saves us from the penalty of our sins as believers.

So, help me out where do you want to go from here. I have more time to discuss this topic since I will be avoiding Izoid and Zee.

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5

Future Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

 

[2nd_Adam]

interesting. Jesus fellowshipped with tax collecters and prostitutes. you also have fellowshipped with mormons in the past, by your own admission. on the sports field and in hawaii. so how when i have the example of Jesus, and your own example can i not fellowship with mormons and have a nice dinner with them for example. Jesus also fellowshipped with those of the pharrisees even tho they were not of his doctrine. you would get alot further with honey instead of vinager. so if you could please, let z out of the dog house

Let me make the proper distinction. I had and currently have friendship with many individuals of the Mormon Faith. I have never had fellowship with Mormons in the context of using the word “fellowship”- those who profess the Christian Faith. If you make a distinction of friendship and fellowship (worshiping God with fellow Christians), then things will appear clearer for you. We are to love our neigbhors as ourselves which is a mix of believers and unbelievers allike. We are also commanded to speak the truth in love to those outside the family of God in Christ, so that they would come to know God through Christ.

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. - Apostle Paul - Gal 6

 

[tweetymom]

About Mormans; Why are there so many threads here at CAF about the Morman Church that are not exactly uplifting? But yet everyone here is on Adams case about his stance? I have read worse here.

 

[2nd_Adam]

About Mormans; Why are there so many threads here at CAF about the Morman Church that are not exactly uplifting? But yet everyone here is on Adams case about his stance? I have read worse here.

Thanks for the kind words and your support sister. It’s simply spiritual warfare being played out on Catholic Answers.

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak. - Ephesians 6

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Paul

 

[izoid]

That’s exactly why I have troubles with your credibility of being an apparent Calvinist. The word Reformed is the same things as being in a Calvinist Church. Why are you unwilling to post what church that you attended? I find that you may be hiding something.

Look, I am really do not need to prove myself to you. I have acurately articulated Calvins 5 points, reflected the teachings of prominent Calvinists and you still question me. On what basis do you question? Have I misrepresented the teachings of Calvin? Show me where Adam.

Just so you know, I spent the early years of my walk at Grace Community Church, John MacArthur’s church, in Sun Valley California. My entire foundation of the faith was built there.

From there I moved to Arizona and spent many years at Scottsdale Bible Church. I spent 3 years in the elder training program and was the lay leader of the outreach training program. SBC is a very large, 12,000 Sunday attendance, influential church. RC Sproul would often fill the pulpit when our senior pastor was out.

I then attended Foothill Bible Church in Upland California where all 3 of our pastors were graduates of the Master’s Seminary, run by John MacArthur.

My undergratuate education was at Liberty University, Jerry Fallwell’s school. While this is not a Calvinist institution, it is a highly conservative Baptist university, it is definately Calvinist leaning in its views.

Would you like for me to send you a copy of my baptismal certificate from Grace Community for your evaluation? You could then determine if I was truly ever in a Calvinist church.

 

[izoid]

About Mormans; Why are there so many threads here at CAF about the Morman Church that are not exactly uplifting? But yet everyone here is on Adams case about his stance? I have read worse here.

Because the Mormon Church does not hold to some of the tenets of historic Christianity. All Protestant denominations will consider them to be a cult and attempt to evangelize them.

Adam shows particular hostility towards Mormons in general and Zee in particular.