The sufficiency of Christ

[2nd_Adam]

Look, I am really do not need to prove myself to you. I have acurately articulated Calvins 5 points, reflected the teachings of prominent Calvinists and you still question me. On what basis do you question? Have I misrepresented the teachings of Calvin? Show me where Adam.

Just so you know, I spent the early years of my walk at Grace Community Church, John MacArther’s church, in Sun Valley California. My entire foundation of the faith was built there.

From there I moved to Arizona and spent many years at Scottsdale Bible Church. I spent 3 years in the elder training program and was the lay leader of the outreach training program. SBC is a very large, 12,000 Sunday attendance, influential church. RC Sproul would often fill the pulpit when our senior pastor was out.

I then attended Foothill Bible Church in Upland California where all 3 of our pastors were graduates of the Master’s Seminary, run by John MacArther.

My undergratuate education was at Liberty University, Jerry Fallwell’s school. While this is not a Calvinist institution, it is Baptist, it is definately Calvinist leaning in its views.

Would you like for me to send you a copy of my baptismal certificate from Grace Community for your evaluation? You could then determine if I was truly ever in a Calvinist church.

I love John MacArthur and lived in southern CA for over 40 years. A very good friend on mind went to the Masters Seminary. I’m not sure most Reformed Christians who consider MacArthur to be a true Calvinist, as he is quite the dispensationalist. You might call MacArthur to be a hybrid of a sort, not really an Arminian dispensationalist, nor really Reformed. He grew into receiving the 5 points of Calvinism over the years. The Lordship controversy comes from John MacArthur’s work, and maybe that is why you experienced an Arminian fruit inspector’s view over there. Jerry Falwell is an Arminian Protestant brother. Just because RC Sproul visited the Scottsdale Bible church doesn’t make it a Reformed or Calvinist Church. Here’s a link to Scottsdale Bible Church. It looks like a solid church but it is defintely not a Reformed of a Calvinist Church. I would define a Calviinst Church to be confessional or creedal in nature, adhering to one of the major historic Protestant Confessions of Faith (WCF, H, LB, etc).

scottsdalebible.com/about/what-we-believe/statement-of-faith

Therefore, I would not consider your spiritual journey as credentials to represent Calvinism. I would definitely consider Scott Hahn to be a true ex-Calvinist since he was a Pastor at a PCA Church.

Now, here’s the last church on the list that you attended which appears to be a fundamental Baptist Church:

Foothill Bible Church

foothillbiblechurch.org/

So, I see you as have a consistent spiritual journey through fundamental Baptist theology and emphasis. Now I can have more patience with you, and understand your moods.

 

[izoid]

I love John MacArthur and lived in southern CA for over 40 years. A very good friend on mind went to the Masters Seminary. I’m not sure most Reformed Christians who consider MacArthur to be a true Calvinist, as he is quite the dispensationalist. You might call MacArthur to be a hybrid of a sort, not really an Arminian dispensationalist, nor really Reformed. He grew into receiving the 5 points of Calvinism over the years. The Lordship controversy comes from John MacArthur’s work, and maybe that is why you experienced an Arminian fruit inspector’s view over there. Jerry Falwell is an Arminian Protestant brother. Just because RC Sproul visited the church doesn’t make it a Reformed or Calvinist Church.

MacAthur is NOT an Ariminianist, he is a hyper Calvinist. Dispensationalism does not exclude one from being a Calvinist just as being a covenentalist does not make one a Calvinist.

No RC Sproul filling the pulpit does not make us Calvinist, but an Arminian congregation would not allow him to fill their pulpit. SBC was certainly Calvinist in their theology.

True, Liberty is not a true Calvinist institution but they do hold to many of Calvins teachings. But then again, as Sproul said, there are no such thing as 3 or 4 point Calvinists, it is all or nothing.

 

[Shannon9791]

I’m sorry for the delay, but Izoid and Zee are quite the distraction. Can we start with this? I notice that many Catholics like to quote out of context “faith without works is dead” and “work out your salvation in fear and trembling…”. Now look at this verse in a bigger context…

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Phil 2

The two yardsticks which measure the love of God for us in the New Testament are the doctrines of adoption and propitiation. Christ is sufficient to secure our eternal adoption; in addition Christ is sufficient for full atonement because He bore the wrath of God for our past, present, and future sins (Christians only). The cross is a full atonement which He actually saves us from the penalty of our sins as believers.

So, help me out where do you want to go from here. I have more time to discuss this topic since I will be avoiding Izoid and Zee.

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5

Future Glory

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 8

If you wish to discuss faith and works and how that goes down, that’s fine, and we can do that, but you need to answer my question to you first. I am not going to discuss anything else until you give me scriptural evidence that says scripture is sufficient. You said you believe in the sufficiency of scripture, so where is it in scripture.

 

[2nd_Adam]

MacAthur is NOT an Ariminianist, he is a hyper Calvinist. Dispensationalism does not exclude one from being a Calvinist just as being a covenentalist does not make one a Calvinist.

No RC Sproul filling the pulpit does not make us Calvinist, but an Arminian congregation would not allow him to fill their pulpit. SBC was certainly Calvinist in their theology.

True, Liberty is not a true Calvinist institution but they do hold to many of Calvins teachings. But then again, as Sproul said, there are no such thing as 3 or 4 point Calvinists, it is all or nothing.

John MacArthur is a gifted pastor and a godly man. You are right that he is not an Arminian. However, he is not a hyper-Calvinist. But, I wouldn’t consider MacArthur to be a Calvinist in a broader sense of the word. Calvinism is not just the 5 points of Calvinsim; TULIP is just a portion of Calvinisn which is Reformed Theology. I live 30 minutes from the church that his Dad preached in (First Baptist Church in Eugene). His sister still attends there. I would say that MacArthur grew up in fundamental Arminian Baptist Church.

I see you that you not experienced Calvinism as defined with Reformed Theology. Your background is Fundamental Baptist which makes sense why you experienced that fruit inspector mentality. I would end and say that Scott Hahn would understand Calvinism and Reformed Theology, coming from the PCA to the Catholic Faith. Your history (IMO) would represent a Fundamental Baptist coming into the Catholic Faith. We all have a history in our spiritual journey.

 

[fhansen]

I’m sorry for the delay, but Izoid and Zee are quite the distraction. Can we start with this? I notice that many Catholics like to quote out of context “faith without works is dead” and “work out your salvation in fear and trembling…”. Now look at this verse in a bigger context…

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Phil 2

The two yardsticks which measure the love of God for us in the New Testament are the doctrines of adoption and propitiation. Christ is sufficient to secure our eternal adoption; in addition Christ is sufficient for full atonement because He bore the wrath of God for our past, present, and future sins (Christians only). The cross is a full atonement which He actually saves us from the penalty of our sins as believers.

Here’s more from Augustine and the necessity of a believer to overcome sin/be perfected in order to inherit eternal life:

After all sins have been blotted out, and that guilt has been cancelled which by nature bound men in a conquered condition, it still remains—but not to hurt in any way those who yield no consent to it for unlawful deeds—until death is swallowed up in victory 1 Corinthians 15:54 and, in that perfection of peace, nothing is left to be conquered. Such, however, as yield consent to it for the commission of unlawful deeds, it holds as guilty; and unless, through the medicine of repentance, and through works of mercy, by the intercession in our behalf of the heavenly High Priest, they be healed, it conducts us to the second death and utter condemnation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here’s more from Augustine and the necessity of a believer to overcome sin/be perfected in order to inherit eternal life:

After all sins have been blotted out, and that guilt has been cancelled which by nature bound men in a conquered condition, it still remains—but not to hurt in any way those who yield no consent to it for unlawful deeds—until death is swallowed up in victory 1 Corinthians 15:54 and, in that perfection of peace, nothing is left to be conquered. Such, however, as yield consent to it for the commission of unlawful deeds, it holds as guilty; and unless, through the medicine of repentance, and through works of mercy, by the intercession in our behalf of the heavenly High Priest, they be healed, it conducts us to the second death and utter condemnation.

Romans 8 would agree with you too. A true Christian will mortify the flesh through the Spirit.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If you wish to discuss faith and works and how that goes down, that’s fine, and we can do that, but you need to answer my question to you first. I am not going to discuss anything else until you give me scriptural evidence that says scripture is sufficient. You said you believe in the sufficiency of scripture, so where is it in scripture.

As I have said many times on this thread, please start an authority thread to debate sola scriptura verses the Magisterium. Scripture points to Christ who is sufficient for us. It is a different issue.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 8 would agree with you too. A true Christian will mortify the flesh through the Spirit.

According to Augustine, a true Christian must mortify the flesh through the Spirit, or he won’t see God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

According to Augustine, a true Christian must mortify the flesh through the Spirit, or he won’t see God.

If Augustine acutally meant what you posted, he is wrong. I will take the words of Jesus over Augustine any day of the week.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 14

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; I believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me [5] anything in my name, I will do it.

 

[izoid]

John MacArthur is a gifted pastor and a godly man. You are right that he is not an Arminian. However, he is not a hyper-Calvinist. But, I wouldn’t consider MacArthur to be a Calvinist in a broader sense of the word. Calvinism is not just the 5 points of Calvinsim; TULIP is just a portion of Calvinisn which is Reformed Theology. I live 30 minutes from the church that his Dad preached in (First Baptist Church in Eugene). His sister still attends there. I would say that MacArthur grew up in fundamental Arminian Baptist Church.

I see you that you not experienced Calvinism as defined with Reformed Theology. Your background is Fundamental Baptist which makes sense why you experienced that fruit inspector mentality. I would end and say that Scott Hahn would understand Calvinism and Reformed Theology, coming from the PCA to the Catholic Faith. Your history (IMO) would represent a Fundamental Baptist coming into the Catholic Faith. We all have a history in our spiritual journey.

So I guess MacArthur doesn’t know what a Calvinist is since he considers himself to be one?

gty.org/Resources/Articles/10194

 

[2nd_Adam]

So I guess MacArthur doesn’t know what a Calvinist is since he considers himself to be one?

gty.org/Resources/Articles/10194

Calvinism according to Calvinists is much more than the 5 points of Calvinism. I would say that these two sites represent Calvinism:

monergism.com/

reformed.org/

If you wanted your Catholic siblings to understand Calvinism, would you recommend that they buy the MacArthur Study Bible or the New Geneva Study Bible (RC Sproul as general editor). If someone wanted to go to seminary who taught historic Calvinism as defined within the historical Protestant Confessionals, would you recommend Westminster West Seminary in Escondido, CA, or the Master’s Seminary?

 

[fhansen]

If Augustine acutally meant what you posted, he is wrong. I will take the words of Jesus over Augustine any day of the week.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 14

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; I believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me [5] anything in my name, I will do it.

Augustine happened to think the gestation period was longer than you do.

 

[tweetymom]

If Augustine acutally meant what you posted, he is wrong. I will take the words of Jesus over Augustine any day of the week.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Hey Adam you are so right. I really do not understand all of this. I believe in Jesus, that He died for my sins, was born of a Virgin,I was baptised, try my best to live up to what Christ wants from me, and know I will go to heaven, and look forward to His coming again. Maybe I am a simple mined woman, but thats what I believe in. And I am happy in the Lord:clapping:

 

[Shannon9791]

As I have said many times on this thread, please start an authority thread to debate sola scriptura verses the Magisterium. Scripture points to Christ who is sufficient for us. It is a different issue.

If it’s such a different issue, why did YOU BRING IT UP!?!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey Adam you are so right. I really do not understand all of this. I believe in Jesus, that He died for my sins, was born of a Virgin,I was baptised, try my best to live up to what Christ wants from me, and know I will go to heaven, and look forward to His coming again. Maybe I am a simple mined woman, but thats what I believe in. And I am happy in the Lord:clapping:

You are right and understand what is important. I believe you would agree with me that God is your eternal Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ. We rejoice in God together as siblings for what He has done for us in Christ… giving Him all the glory.

Being happy in the Lord is what it’s really about, because it glorifies God when our joy is in Him.

 

[izoid]

Calvinism according to Calvinists is much more than the 5 points of Calvinism. I would say that these two sites represent Calvinism:

monergism.com/

reformed.org/

If you wanted your Catholic siblings to understand Calvinism, would you recommend that they buy the MacArthur Study Bible or the New Geneva Study Bible (RC Sproul as general editor). If someone wanted to go to seminary who taught historic Calvinism as defined within the historical Protestant Confessionals, would you recommend Westminster West Seminary in Escondido, CA, or the Master’s Seminary?

I think this illustrates my point regarding Calvinist eliteism. Now, not even a self proclaimed Calvinist, MacArthur, is good enough to be a true Calvinist.

 

[tweetymom]

You are right and understand what is important. I believe you would agree with me that God is your eternal Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ.

Yes God is my eternal Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ, not because of who said what to who, Because the Bible tells me so and that settles it in my eyes, and heart. I am telling you the truth I do not understand all this stuff about who said what about whatever, just read Gods word and it will tell you all you need to know:thumbsup:

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think this illustrates my point regarding Calvinist eliteism. Now, not even a self proclaimed Calvinist, MacArthur, is good enough to be a true Calvinist.

Don’t get me wrong, John MacArthur is a godly gifted pastor, and I thank God for his ministry. Calvinism is not the savior nor is it the gospel. I am not pointing anyone here to Calvinism, but I am pointing everyone here to Jesus Christ and His sufficiency in Him.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes God is my eternal Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ, not because of who said what to who, Because the Bible tells me so and that settles it in my eyes, and heart. I am telling you the truth I do not understand all this stuff about who said what about whatever, just read Gods word and it will tell you all you need to know:thumbsup:

Knowledge can puff up. You have the right focus and balance as my dear Christian sister in Christ! We all have different callings and there is a spiritual battle going on here. We all need to be reminded of 1 Cor 13, in which you always seem to reflect in your postings! I thank God for what He has done for you and your family dear sister in Christ! I will try hard to take a break until tomorrow if I can from CA. May the Lord continue to abundantly bless you, and continue to rejoice in Him.

 

[tweetymom]

Knowledge can puff up. You have the right focus and balance as my dear Christian sister in Christ! We all have different callings and there is a spiritual battle going on here. We all need to be reminded of 1 Cor 13, in which you always seem to reflect in your postings! I thank God for what He has done for you and your family dear sister in Christ! I will try hard to take a break until tomorrow if I can from CA. May the Lord continue to abundantly bless you, and continue to rejoice in Him.

Adam I wasn’t being critial of you at all. I know there is a spiritaul battle going on. Sorry if you thought I meant you. I love you with the love of the Kord. And have a pleasant time away fro,m Ca. Bod Bless you and your family.