The sufficiency of Christ

[guanophore]

We are justified by faith in what God has done for us in Christ (see Pope's link). Therefore, to be able to have faith and complete trust in what Christ has accomplished for us in Christ to be justified, we are to believe in the gospel of God about His Son with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind.  So, the sufficiency of Jesus Christ is all about Christ and Him crucified for wretched sinners like me and you to bring us to God, reconcile us to Him, and is the basis for our adoption in which we are able to call upon God as our Heavenly Father (Abba Father).  We know it is impossible to please God without faith. To have a faith that please God is believing what He has done for us in Christ.

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Exaclty! and this is why it is insulting to us when you say we do not consider His death on the cross “adequate” is sufficient for us.

As a Catholic Christian, on what basis are you able to call on God as your Heavenly Father? On what basis are you a child of God?

It is the Spirit of God which unites us to Him (through baptism) that enables us to call God “Father”. He placed the Spirit of Sonship in us when were united to HIm in His death on the cross.

We all know that there are multiple interpretations and understanding on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition including the Catholic Catechism.

Yes, but the Catechism is considered a “sure norm” for the teaching of the faith. Therefore, persons like our beloved Tweety who depart from the faith it upholds are not Catholic in their faith.

the Magestrium

I think what you are trying to use here is a Latin term that derives from the magesterium, which originally meant the office of a president, chief, director, superintendent. It refers ot the Teaching Authority of the Church, instituted by Christ. Jesus took the Seat of Moses from the Pharisees, and gave it to the Apostles. They taught with His authority.

Guan…seems to go way beyond his laity authority and appears to speaks as He is the Magestrium himself.

LOL.

Well, when one is representing the teaching of the Church, one can participate in the authority which she holds. However, as a lay apologist, it is just my duty to give an account of the hope that is within me.

Anytime he disagrees with someone, he simply states that it is not what the Apostles believed and taught…LOL.

Actually, this is not true. there is a great deal of stuff on here I disagree with. Not all of it has to do with doctrines that depart from what the Apostles believed and taught.

Guan’s view does not always represent a correct orthodox Catholic understanding, but at least he tries.

Do you think my understanding of the sufficiency of Christ departs from what is taught by the Church?

I think it is very difficult to be a Catholic Christian... trying to find out what is actually what you are suppose to believe as a Catholic Chrisitan on various subjects.  I see mass confusion on ecumencism and non-Christian Faiths with Catholics.

Yes, I think that there is constant room for growth as a Christian. There is no way that anyone could master the 2000 years of theological writing and expertise written by the faithful. then, to understand it, one must also read and understand the heresies against which many of these works are written. One must continually study to show oneself approved.

The faith is not “complicated”, though. Ecumenism has some very simple principles. We do not depart from the Truth entrusted to the Church by the Apostles in order to get warm fuzzies with our siblings.

Is it okay for Catholics and Protestants to leave our respective Christian communities for the Mormon gospel. Is historic Christianity apostate in which we need to be restored to God through Mormonism?

Honestly, 2nd, why do you let Z bother you so much? Here you are again, derailing your own thread!

 

[izoid]

Please answer post 667 first and I will continue with you in the morning.

No, you answer me. Post 667 is your response to my questions. If you choose not to answer them I will have no more dialog with you other to ask the same questions.

 

[zerinus]

Honestly, 2nd, why do you let Z bother you so much? Here you are again, derailing your own thread!

You can say that again!

 

[guanophore]

In regards to the thread topic, do you believe Jesus Christ is sufficient for you in regards to being an eternal adopted child of God? Do you believe that Jesus Christ paid for all of your past, present, and future sins,(believe that the atoning work of Christ as sufficient for you)?

The error is the belief that He treats us a slaves, rather than sons. He loves us so much, He allows his children to walk away from Him.

Yes, His blood has paid the price for the sins of the whole world, for all time. However, those who do not come to Him in faith, and confession, will have their sins forgiven.

We should try our best to stay within the tread topic to avoid chaos and mass confusion.

Spoken as the true prince of derailment!

Okay, I will post the Scriptures on adoption and propitiation in regards to the love of God when I get back.

No need fror that, I know where they are.

I want you to post the scripture that says these are “the yardstick”.

Do you see being part of the bride of Christ a greater love of God than your sonship through adoption?

Don’t think so.

Not all those who are adopted will become part of the Bride.

I completely agree! We are both adopted children and the bride of Christ. Someone posted that being a bride of Christ is a greater love of God then our adoption.

It might be more accurate to say that, when we allow His grace to maintain us as part of His Bride, we experience more of His love. Those who are born again,then leave do not experience His love this way.

The real issue is about the sufficiency of Christ for our eternal adoption and our eternal status of being part of the bride of Christ.

No, I don’t think so. I think we are in agreement about the sufficiency of Christ. What I think is the issue is that you think that status is eternal, when Jesus and the Apostles taught that it was not.

Basically, Protestants believe that God renders a judicial decree announcing us to be forgiven due to Christ’s death on the cross. Christ’s death was a propitiation,

This is what the Apostles taught - what is found in the Scriptures.

appeasement, of God's wrath towards us.

I think this is Calvin’s psychological issues leaking into his theology.

Because of this we are declared sons instead of being declared guilty. This sonship is a positional sonship, or adoption. In a nut shell we are declared righteous through Christ’s death on the cross, propitiation. Because of this declaration we are positionally Gods sons, adoption.

Do you think any of this is not found in Scripture?

 All of it is declared righteousness and adoption, not actually being righteous or truly being adopted.  It is a "declared" "positional" righteousness and sonship.

This is where the problem arises. The Apostles taught that we are infused BECAUSE we are declared, and made righteous BECAUSE we are adopted.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Please answer post 667 first and I will continue with you in the morning.

A dialogue is not one voice–that is preaching. If you cannot (or will not) our questions, then why are you here, asking for our (name removed by moderator)ut?

 

[2nd_Adam]

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Exaclty! and this is why it is insulting to us when you say we do not consider His death on the cross “adequate” is sufficient for us.

It’s really hard to answer and respond to you when you break up your thoughts in the way your respond to my posting. It would be so much easier if you put your thoughts in one long paragraph. Do you mind doing this for me? I don’t try to mean to be personally insulting? I just want to discuss our historical differences in justification as objective as we are able. I see that lack of assurance in which Catholic theology causes actually robs the Catholic Christian of joy and affection for God because there is no security in Christ in the Catholic view of justification. How can you enter the Sabbath rest in Christ in what you believe? How do you have peace with God with Catholic Theology? We are to glorify God and enjoy Him together. If you see your adoption as a future event with such uncertainty, then how can you confidently call on God as your Heavenly Father?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

It’s really hard to answer and respond to you when you break up your thoughts. It would be so much easier if you put your thoughts in one long paragraph. Do you mind doing this for me? I don’t try to mean to be personally insulting? I just want to discuss our historical differences in justification as objective as we are able. I see that lack of assurance in which Catholic theology causes actually robs the Catholic Christian of joy and affection for God because there is no security in Christ in the Catholic view of justification. How can you enter the Sabbath rest in Christ in what you believe? How do you have peace with God with Catholic Theology? We are to glory God and enjoy Him together. If you see your adoption as a future event with uncertainity, then how can you confidently call on God as your Heavenly Father?

Izoid has put all his thoughts into one paragraph. He might be insulted if you don’t answer his.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Izoid has put all his thoughts into one paragraph. He might be insulted if you don’t answer his.

Do you realize that there are about a dozen Catholic postings to my one, with a Mormon in the background trying to distract us. I can only answer one person at a time please. I was answering Guan right now. Izoid needs to answer my questions to him before I continue with him.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I encourage all catholics here not to respond to Adam’s questions until he has answered ours.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, this poster was speaking about the Eucharist…and herein lies the crux of the issue of forensic justification/imputed righteousness vs. infused grace and the Sacraments.

They are not opposed to one another, though. This forensic/imputed righteousness is the beginning, and like the tip of the iceberg, the vast majority lies within.

We are not merely declared into the son ship but truly are adopted, by His actual grace (and our cooperation with these unmerited graces) we are truly righteous; we are not "dunghill in snow" but transformed. The old man has not been declared gone but actually is gone.

I was following you up until the last sentence. I think it would be appropriate to note that the consequences of original sin remain, and the “old man” is still very much present, so long as we are in these earthly bodies. We see the Apostle struggle with this in Rom. 7.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

They are not opposed to one another, though. This forensic/imputed righteousness is the beginning, and like the tip of the iceberg, the vast majority lies within.

I was following you up until the last sentence. I think it would be appropriate to note that the consequences of original sin remain, and the “old man” is still very much present, so long as we are in these earthly bodies. We see the Apostle struggle with this in Rom. 7.

Agreed on the last one; I was certainly not trying to say that we cannot sin or original sin doesn’t still affect us but grace is transforming. Do you mind expounding upon the iceberg point?

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, you answer me. Post 667 is your response to my questions. If you choose not to answer them I will have no more dialog with you other to ask the same questions.

Fine, then we are in each other’s dog house. I should never had let you out of my dog house in the first place. You are like a disgruntled employee but instead a disgruntled hostile ex-protestant who has a personal bone to pick. I have no idea what happened to you in the Protestant community to be so hostile and angry? For awhile, I thought you came from the Westboro Baptist Church, but I’m glad I was wrong. Have a good life brother. So, please stick with your posting above and no more dialog then between each other. We are in each other’s perpetual dog house.

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Perpetual doghouse

 

[tweetymom]

I encourage all catholics here not to respond to Adam’s questions until he has answered ours.

Since according to Mr Gee since he thinks I am no A Catholic. I guess I can answer him

 

[izoid]

Regarding your views on the sufficiency of Christ, do you feel that Christ’s death paid everything and that nothing else is needed for justification?

If so, what is true faith that activates salvation?

What happens when one walks with God for a period of time and then rejects God, is Christ’s death sufficient to keep that person saved?

How do you interpret James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Since according to Mr Gee since he thinks I am no A Catholic. I guess I can answer him

Hi sister in Christ,

I find it strange that I have tried to give some my Catholic siblings a reason to rejoice in the Lord with much assurance of God’s everlasting love, that some seem not to want any part of it. I’m sure others out there want to grow together as Christian siblings about the great love God has for us through His Son. Here is one of my favorite verses dear sister.

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - 2 Cor 4

http://www.williamson-labs.com/images/kwj-cross.jpg
Amazing Grace!

 

[PRmerger]

Of course not. I have posted throughout my time on Catholic Answers that I receive Catholic Christians as my siblings in Christ. I believe that I have answered all the related thread topic questions on this thread.

How about this one:
**Originally Posted by 2nd Adam **
The two yardsticks which measure the love of God for us in the New Testament are the doctrines of adoption and propitiation.

Originally posted by guanophore: Can you point out these “yardsticks” in Scripture, or is this part of the Calvanistic extrabiblical revelation?

I know you posted verses which show our adoption and propitiation, but where, specifically do the Scriptures say that this is the “measure of the love of God for us”? Chapter and verse, please. Perhaps if you highlighted words such as “yardstick” or “measure” that are in the verses that would help me see it clearly.

 

[izoid]

Hi sister in Christ,

I find it strange that I have tried to give some my Catholic siblings a reason to rejoice in the Lord with much assurance of God’s everlasting love, that some seem not to want any part of it. I’m sure others out there want to grow together as Christian siblings about the great love God has for us through His Son. Here is one of my favorite verses dear sister.

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. - 2 Cor 4

http://www.williamson-labs.com/images/kwj-cross.jpg
Amazing Grace!

Run away Tweety, Adam is offering you something that God does not.

 

[guanophore]

Full atonement, who can believe this wonder great news of God? Did Christ actually pay for all the sins for His elect, or did he only die on the cross to make salvation possible for all men?

Both things are true. He died for the sins of all. Those who recieve Him, He give power to become sons.

Did Christ rescue sinners from their sins, or did Christ only make a way for all to be saved but His life and death is not enough to be saved?

Again, both things are true. He died to save us from our sins. He made a way for the salvation of the whole world. Not all choose to avail themselves of His payment on their behalf.

Sufficiency of Christ

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

I think that James missed it too. There is no debate about the sufficiency of grace either.

 

[izoid]

Once again he quotes james White, a hostile anti catholic apologist to prove his point. I think Adam’s true colors shine through his rhetoric.

 

[fhansen]

I see that lack of assurance in which Catholic theology causes actually robs the Catholic Christian of joy and affection for God because there is no security in Christ in the Catholic view of justification. How can you enter the Sabbath rest in Christ in what you believe? How do you have peace with God with Catholic Theology? We are to glorify God and enjoy Him together. If you see your adoption as a future event with such uncertainty, then how can you confidently call on God as your Heavenly Father?

Adam, speaking for myself and many Catholics I know, we have the confidence that “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus”. We just agree that the work is not yet complete, and acknowledge our limitations in knowing what only God can know for sure as well as the possibility of our not persevering to the end. This is humility-not lack of trust-and the difference is not so great-it’s the difference of admitting that we must maintain a certain amount of vigilance, looking back over our shoulders now and then to assess whether or not our lives are measuring up, so to speak-and hopefully doing something about it when they don’t-things I think most Protestants do anyway in spite of a professed 100% certainty of salvation.