The sufficiency of Christ

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oh give me a break brother 2nd. im alot harder on you in our pm.s. where is this, im gonna pick up my marbles and go home attitude coming from? its kinda childish. i know you have the ability to respond to izoid. you should be able to communicate with him in a reasonable way. hes way nicer to protestants than i am, and you and i converse just fine. so put the marbles back on the ground give izoid a hug, and lets play. i know ya got it in ya! peace be with you.:grouphug:
There are too many Catholic Christians on this Forum site! I can’t answer all of them. Therefore, Izoid and Zee the Mormon are in my perpetual doghouses so I can best manage my time here. I do have a life outside of Catholic Answers! Christ is sufficient for you brother because God credited the perfect righteousness to your account when you first believed. Do you agree or disagree?

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On other Religous Forum sites, there is an ignore feature. I couldn’t find it on Catholic Answers. I think it is more than reasonable to have two on my perpetual doghouse.
 
Hey brother in tropical Hawaii!!!

It’s been stormy all weekend with snow at the foothills by my house. I find it interesting that you want to offer Zee the Mormon a Corona as a sign of fellowship between you and him. I’m not sure he drinks beer though. I know he doesn’t drink Kona Coffee. I love Kona Coffee. Have you tried local Hawaiians food? I used to go to Hawaii every summer as a kid. My relatives would slaughter a pig for us and make a big luau.

http://www.alohatoystore.com/images/a-luau.jpg
actually im going to get some traditional hawaian food this thursday. it should be really good. have to bring my own beer tho. they only drink bud light…:mad: and no, im not going to offer my mormon friend a corona. i was thinking maybe a sprite. no caffien, no dyes or additives. tasty and refreshing. more corona for you and i. some of our baptist friends may like some corona tho.😃
 
There are too many Catholic Christians on this Forum site! I can’t answer all of them. Therefore, Izoid and Zee the Mormon are in my perpetual doghouses so I can best manage my time here. I do have a life outside of Catholic Answers! Christ is sufficient for you brother because God credited the perfect righteousness to your account when you first believed. Do you agree or disagree?

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/in-the-doghouse.gif

On other Religous Forum sites, there is an ignore feature. I couldn’t find it on Catholic Answers. I think it is more than reasonable to have two on my perpetual doghouse.
i will respond that i am redeemed, and that i am working out my salvation with fear and trembling. i dont make light of salvation, with easy believism. it is not enough to praise God with your lips. your actions must follow. love joy peace patience kindness goodness, gentleness faithfullness, self control, your faith must be followed up by action, otherwise it is dead. even the devil agrees and trembles. it still will not do him any good tho on the day of judgement. peace.
 
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Are you saying that you have assurance that you are an enternal adopted child of God,
Yes. This is what we receive in Baptism.
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 based on the sufficiency of Christ alone for you?  Do you see God as your forever eternal Heavenly Father based on the doctrine of propitation?
He adopted us in love,a nd His love is the basis. His love is expressed in both proptiation, and adoption. However, not all those whose sins were paid come to Him, and are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
 
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  Christ is sufficient for me and you, regardless what we believe. We can have assurance in what God has done for us in Christ, because our faith is in Him and not in ourselves.
This is just the point, 2nd. When one withdraws from Christ, one ceases to place their faith in Him. Look at the parable of the soils/seeds. Jesus was clear that 75% of the seeds sprout. The gospel is born in the heart of the person. However, of those 75% that sprout, 2/3rds are lost.

Now you and your Reformed brethren will say that such a person was never a “true” Christian, but Jesus says differently. He was clear that those received the implanted word with joy. This is not possible unless one is regenerated, according to your theology.
Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.
Yes, this is Catholic teaching. however, it does not stop there. he also infuses us with His righteousness, so that we can become what He has declared us to be.
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Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction. Turning away our view from our own works, it bids us look only to the mercy of God and the perfection of Christ.
Different direction than what? I thought we were already in agreement that the Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by our own works?
The phrase “in him” I have preferred to retain, rather than render it “by him” because it has in my opinion more expressiveness and force. For we are enriched in Christ, inasmuch as we are members of his body, and are engrafted into him: nay more, being made one with him, he makes us share with him in everything that he has received from the Father.John Calvin Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:5
Yes, but it is in Him, and by Him. When we choose to live in sin, we are no longer “in Him”. We are refusing to avail ourselves of Hiss all sufficient grace.
Amazing sufficient Grace was merited for us by the life and death of Jesus Christ.
yes, but not all those He paid for get into the bag and go home with Him.
 
You can say that again! 😃
It is a sure truth that the things we see in others that bother us so much are really inside ourselves, and we don’t want to face them. In fact, 2nd does all those things he accuses you of. He, too, is a missionary, on CAF to convert people to his belief. He just conceptualizes it differently, so he does not see it in himself. When I read his posts about you, I substitute his name for yours, and I realize he is only talking about himself.
 
2nd,why won’t you reply to what I have said to you? The sufficiency of Christ The King(feast day 11/22/09) is dealt w/ in the gospel! Time and Time again I have given you chapter and verse,He that has ears let him hear…Why do you need more then you do? or would it be better to have the Gospel of John one more time? John chapter 6 verse 53-56? Anymore questions?
 
A dialogue is not one voice–that is preaching. If you cannot (or will not) our questions, then why are you here, asking for our (name removed by moderator)ut?
2nd has been quite forthright about his evangelistic agenda here. He has stated that he believes there is a "remnant’ of the saved within the Catholic Church, and that he hopes to “inflame their affection for God” by challenging their non-biblical (not Calvanistic) beliefs.
 
Yes. This is what we receive in Baptism.

He adopted us in love,a nd His love is the basis. His love is expressed in both proptiation, and adoption. However, not all those whose sins were paid come to Him, and are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
Okay, we are making progress. To make sure we are on the right page, what is your understanding of the biblical doctrine of propitation and adoption.
 
2nd has been quite forthright about his evangelistic agenda here. He has stated that he believes there is a "remnant’ of the saved within the Catholic Church, and that he hopes to “inflame their affection for God” by challenging their non-biblical (not Calvanistic) beliefs.
There is a historic divide between Catholic theology and historic Protestant theology which is the heart of the gospel. Our historic divide which stands today is the biblical doctrine of justification. I don’t believe that the Catholic positon of justification is damnable, but I believe the Catholic view hinders the Catholic Chrisitan’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. Therefore, we are discussing the sufficiency of Christ as our only needed basis for eternal adoption through propitation (full atonement). I think the remnant chosen by grace in our respective communities will grow in our love and affection for God. A measuring rod of being an elect is our growing love for God which is linked to a proper understanding of the person and work of Christ for us.

BTW… did you see the thread of Magisterium alone in the apologetics section? How do you see yourself in what that poster is saying?
 
Since according to Mr Gee since he thinks I am no A Catholic. I guess I can answer him:rolleyes:
Of course you can! Your answers unconditionally support his anti-Catholic theologies, and those of us that know you have come to expect that. We know when you answer him, it will most likely not be a Catholic response, since you reject the teachings of the Church.
 
Sorry, I was a little behind trying to catch up on the thread. this is a good idea.
Guan,

I have Izoid on perpetual ignore. Why don’t you post all the questions that you want answered before we continue. I will answer your questions that are related to the thread topic to the best of my ability.
 
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We are only communicating truths through words.  If you don't see the great love of God through the Scriptures on adoption and propitation,
2nd, no one said they could nto see the great love of God through the scriptures on adoption and propitation. what we said was that we could not find your claim that these are the “yardstick”. It may seem insignificant to you, but it is an example of how you surreptitiously insert your theology into the discussion, and claim that things are found in scripture that are not there.
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then I can't help you in your progressive growth in your love and affection for God.
This may come as a shock to you, 2nd, since you do not seem to be able to see the evangelistic agenda in yourself, but CAF is not provided as a venue for you to help us to grow in our love and affection for God. CAF is here to provide Catholic answers, not so that you can convert us to Calvanistic theology.
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 Peter tells us to grow in the grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Paul tells us in view of God's mercy (cross of Christ), be transformed by the renewing of our minds.  That's all we are doing on this thread.
I am sure you would like it to appear that is what you are doing here. However, you have clearly stated that the Catholic view of Christ is “lower” than yours, and that it seems to be in need of repair and upgrading.
Always Reforming:)
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  Looking at the person and work of Christ on our behalf with greater depth which will grow our love for our Triune God.
In your mind, this means separating the sheep from the goats.
 
So, that’s you’re new game plan. We are in each other’s perpetual doghouse, but you will talk about me behind my back. You’re one of a kind.
Don’t be silly, 2nd. If he were wanting to talk behind your back, he would be doing it by PM!
 
This may come as a shock to you, 2nd, since you do not seem to be able to see the evangelistic agenda in yourself, but CAF is not provided as a venue for you to help us to grow in our love and affection for God. CAF is here to provide Catholic answers, not so that you can convert us to Calvanistic theology.
I continue to post as I have throughout my time on Catholic Answers, that Calvinism is not the gospel, nor is John Calvin is the savior. Catholic Answers is a commuity to discuss God with others from various backgrounds and perspectives. You sure seem to think people have to think exactly like you and seem to be hostile to members of the Catholic Church who don’t see things just like you. The Magisterium as well as myself believe that there are true believers in the various Christian communities. If you think my participation does not fall in-line within Catholic Answers rules, then you are welcome to discuss this with the moderators. I’ve had about 2,700 posts and it appears the moderators are okay with my participation on this Christian community consisting of a mixture of Christians with various beliefs. It’s okay to have honest differences as Christians. Ecumenism between Protestant and Catholics is a very difficult road, which needs to be attempted from both sides. If you don’t want to post questions that you want me to answer in regards to the thread topic, I will understand. But, please treat Tweetymom the 71 year old Catholic great grandma with more charity, respect, kindness and love. Apologetics not done as an act of worship is knowledge which puffs up the flesh that remains in all of us. True maturity in Christ is a growing love and affection for God, and as we grow in our love for God, we are enabled to love others as God commands us to do.
 
There is a historic divide between Catholic theology and historic Protestant theology which is the heart of the gospel. Our historic divide which stands today is the biblical doctrine of justification. I don’t believe that the Catholic positon of justification is damnable, but I believe the Catholic view hinders the Catholic Chrisitan’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. Therefore, we are discussing the sufficiency of Christ as our only needed basis for eternal adoption through propitation (full atonement). I think the remnant chosen by grace in our respective communities will grow in our love and affection for God. A measuring rod of being an elect is our growing love for God which is linked to a proper understanding of the person and work of Christ for us.

BTW… did you see the thread of Magisterium alone in the apologetics section? How do you see yourself in what that poster is saying?
ill be really honest with you brother 2nd. i have found more joy and affection and fulfillment, since i have accepte the teachings of Christ and His Church. nothing can fill me with greater joy, than knowing that my service to others, my sharing in their joys and sufferings actually mean something. also my own sufferings and hardships have meaning, and joy can be found in them. protestantism tends to avoid the question of suffering, because they think it is something to be delivered from at all cost. Catholocism teaches that we can offer up our sufferings in communion with Christ and share in His suffering. this is far deeper than most protestants are willing to go. the protestants ive known tend to think that they are being punished by Gog for some trangression when things are not going well. and THAT robs many of THEM from a closer walk and communion with the Risen one. all these things are tied in together. our whole life is to be the life of Christ. not just an easy believism. God bless you and yours. and i disagree my Catholic brothers and sisters. lets not ignore him, this is a chance for us to learn forbearance and patience as well.😉 lets all remember who we serve here. God bless every one of you.🙂
 
There is a historic divide between Catholic theology and historic Protestant theology which is the heart of the gospel. Our historic divide which stands today is the biblical doctrine of justification.
Christians are justified by faith alone, their standing before God is not in any way related to personal merit. Good works and practical holiness do not provide the grounds for acceptance with God. God receives as righteous those who believe, not because of any good thing He sees in them–not even because of His own sanctifying work in their lives–but solely on the basis of Christ’s righteousness, which is reckoned to their account. “To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Romans 4:5). That is justification.

Declared Righteous: What Actually Changes?

In its theological sense, justification is a forensic, or purely legal, term. It describes what God declares about the believer, not what He does to change the believer. In fact, justification effects no actual change whatsoever in the sinner’s nature or character. Justification is a divine judicial edict. It changes our status only, but it carries ramifications that guarantee other changes will follow. Forensic decrees like this are fairly common in everyday life.

When I was married, for example, my wife and I stood before the minister and recited our vows. Near the end of the ceremony, the minister declared, “By the authority vested in me by the state of Illinois, I pronounce you man and wife.” Instantly we were legally husband and wife. Whereas seconds before we had been an engaged couple, now we were married. Nothing inside us actually changed when those words were spoken. But our status changed before God, the law, and our family and friends. The implications of that simple declaration have been lifelong and life-changing. But when the minister spoke those words, it was a legal declaration only.

Similarly, when a jury foreman reads the verdict, the defendant is no longer “the accused.” Legally and officially he instantly becomes either guilty or innocent–depending on the verdict. Nothing in his actual nature changes, but if he is found not guilty he will walk out of court a free person in the eyes of the law, fully justified.

In biblical terms, justification is a divine verdict of “not guilty–fully righteous.” It is the reversal of God’s attitude toward the sinner. Whereas He formerly condemned, He now vindicates. Although the sinner once lived under God’s wrath, as a believer he or she is now under God’s blessing.

Justification is more than simple pardon; pardon alone would still leave the sinner without merit before God. So when God justifies He imputes divine righteousness to the sinner (Romans 4:22-25). Christ’s own infinite merit thus becomes the ground on which the believer stands before God (Romans 5:19; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:9). So justification elevates the believer to a realm of full acceptance and divine privilege in Jesus Christ.

Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification:
  • We are adopted as sons and daughters (Romans 8:15)
  • We become fellow-heirs with Christ (v. 17)
  • We are united with Christ so that we become one with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17)
  • We are henceforth “in Christ” (Galatians 3:27) and He in us (Colossians 1:27)
How Justification and Sanctification Differ

Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16).

Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:
  • Justification imputes Christ’s righteousness to the sinner’s account (Romans 4:11b) Sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
  • Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2), Sanctification is internal and changes the believer’s state (Romans 6:19).
  • Justification is an event, Sanctification a process.
Those two must be distinguished but can never be separated. God does not justify whom He does not sanctify, and He does not sanctify whom He does not justify. Both are essential elements of salvation.
 
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