The sufficiency of Christ

[2nd_Adam]

And after page six, 2nd is not about to spill the bean and some of us are salivating …

Usually in a situation like this it will be just lost in the posts, interest dies down and people would just move on to participate on whatever that’s current on the discussion. But noted, 2nd is asking for patience.

God bless.

Thanks for your understanding. I already sent a private message to my favorite Catholic brother guanaphore to respond. You might want to send him a pm too. I think I’m going to shut the computer off for the night and do the dishes and shock my wife. Good night all, and our God is sufficient for me and you, even though you don’t believe that He is. Just because you think you can apostate, does not make it true.

 

[zerinus]

And after page six, 2nd is not about to spill the bean and some of us are salivating …

Usually in a situation like this it will be just lost in the posts, interest dies down and people would just move on to participate on whatever that’s current on the discussion. But noted, 2nd is asking for patience.

God bless.

The answer to that is easy enough. See my post #75. Protestants basically deny man his freedom of choice. They say for man to have freewill to make a choice to obey God and be saved, or disobey God and be damned, somehow diminishes God’s sovereignty. They have to deprive man of his God given freewill in order, in their reckoning, to restore to God His dignity and sovereignty! In their theology salvation and damnation is forced by God on the individual. Man does not have any choice on the matter. He doesn’t choose and he doesn’t decide. God makes all the decisions. Whereas in Catholic theology man is free to make a choice. He decides his own fate by voluntarily choosing to obey God or disobey Him—which is indeed the correct biblical teaching. That is what makes Protestantism the most damnable heresy of them all. Catholics are right—and Protestants are dead wrong.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The answer to that is easy enough. See my post #75. Protestants basically deny man his freedom of choice. They say for man to have freewill to make a choice to obey God and be saved, or disobey God and be damned, somehow diminishes God’s sovereignty. They have to deprive man of his God given freewill in order, in their reckoning, to restore to God His dignity and sovereignty! In their theology salvation and damnation is forced by God on the individual. Man does not have any choice on the matter. He doesn’t choose and he doesn’t decide. God makes all the decisions. Whereas in Catholic theology man is free to make a choice. He decides his own fate by voluntarily choosing to obey God or disobey Him—which is indeed the correct biblical teaching. That is what makes Protestantism the most damnable heresy of them all. Catholics are right—and Protestants are dead wrong.

All I can find are documents called Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Do you know of such documents called Mormons and Catholics Together?

The ECT Statement taken from Christianity Today, December 8, 1997, pp. 35-77

EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS TOGETHER: THE GIFT OF SALVATION

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17)

We give thanks to God that in recent years many Evangelicals and Catholics, ourselves among them, have been able to express a common faith in Christ and so to acknowledge one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. We confess together one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; we confess Jesus Christ the Incarnate Son of God; we affirm the binding authority of Holy Scripture, God’s inspired Word; and we acknowledge the Apostles’ and Nicene creeds as faithful witnesses to that Word.

The effectiveness of our witness for Christ depends upon the work of the Holy Spirit, who calls and empowers us to confess together the meaning of the salvation promised and accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. Through prayer and study of Holy Scripture, and aided by the Church’s reflection on the sacred text from earliest times, we have found that, notwithstanding some persistent and serious differences, we can together bear witness to the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. To this saving gift we now testify, speaking not for, but from and to, our several communities… seekgod.ca/ect2.htm

:grouphug:

You are welcome to join us in the circle of life if you reject the claims of Mormonism.

March 29, 1994

EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS TOGETHER:
THE CHRISTIAN MISSION IN THE THIRD MILLENNIUM

Introduction. I. We Affirm Together. II. We Hope Together III. We Search Together. IV. We Contend Together. V. We Witness Together. Conclusion.

INTRODUCTION.
We are Evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics who have been led through prayer, study, and discussion to common convictions about Christian faith and mission. This statement cannot speak officially for our communities. It does intend to speak responsibly from our communities and to our communities. In this statement we address what we have discovered both about our unity and about our differences. We are aware that our experience reflects the distinctive circumstances and opportunities of Evangelicals and Catholics living together in North America. At the same time, we believe that what we have discovered and resolved is pertinent to the relationship between Evangelicals and Catholics in other parts of the world. We therefore commend this statement to their prayerful consideration.

As the Second Millennium draws to a close, the Christian mission in world history faces a moment of daunting opportunity and responsibility. If in the merciful and mysterious ways of God the Second Coming is delayed, we enter upon a Third Millennium that could be, in the words of John Paul II, “a springtime of world missions.” (Redemptoris Missio)

As Christ is one, so the Christian mission is one. That one mission can be and should be advanced in diverse ways. Legitimate diversity, however, should not be confused with existing divisions between Christians that obscure the one Christ and hinder the one mission. There is a necessary connection between the visible unity of Christians and the mission of the one Christ. We together pray for the fulfillment of the prayer of Our Lord: “May they all be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, so also may they be in us, that the one, may believe that you sent me.” (John 17) We together, Evangelicals and Catholics, confess our sins against the unity that Christ intends for all his disciples.

seekgod.ca/ect3.htm

 

[Reuben_J]

The answer to that is easy enough. See my post #75. Protestants basically deny man his freedom of choice. They say for man to have freewill to make a choice to obey God and be saved, or disobey God and be damned, somehow diminishes God’s sovereignty. They have to deprive man of his God given freewill in order, in their reckoning, to restore to God His dignity and sovereignty! In their theology salvation and damnation is forced by God on the individual. Man does not have any choice on the matter. He doesn’t choose and he doesn’t decide. God makes all the decisions. Whereas in Catholic theology man is free to make a choice. He decides his own fate by voluntarily choosing to obey God or disobey Him—which is indeed the correct biblical teaching. That is what makes Protestantism the most damnable heresy of them all. Catholics are right—and Protestants are dead wrong.

Thanks. Funny that 2nd seems to miss this post.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks for your understanding. I already sent a private message to my favorite Catholic brother guanaphore to respond. You might want to send him a pm too. I think I’m going to shut the computer off for the night and do the dishes and shock my wife. Good night all, and our God is sufficient for me and you, even though you don’t believe that He is. Just because you think you can apostate, does not make it true.

**What? **

Even though you are trying to be witty and I note you insert a wink there, well, that’s still your opinion which is without any stated basis. As for the fact that you try to push forward this argument, your position have not been established.

I can only say at this stage, have your fun, 2nd! Fortunately you are well entertained here. Catholics are rather obliging people, thanks God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

**What? **

Even though you are trying to be witty and I note you insert a wink there, well, that’s still your opinion which is without any stated basis. As for the fact that you try to push forward this argument, your position have not been established.

I can only say at this stage, have your fun, 2nd! Fortunately you are well entertained here. Catholics are rather obliging people, thanks God.

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him,

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever. - Hebrews

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thanks. Funny that 2nd seems to miss this post.

Zerinus’ (Mormon - LDS) posting is human philosophy and not biblical revelation.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. - Apostle Paul

Originally Posted by zerinus (Mormon - LDS)
The answer to that is easy enough. See my post #75. Protestants basically deny man his freedom of choice. They say for man to have freewill to make a choice to obey God and be saved, or disobey God and be damned, somehow diminishes God’s sovereignty. They have to deprive man of his God given freewill in order, in their reckoning, to restore to God His dignity and sovereignty! In their theology salvation and damnation is forced by God on the individual. Man does not have any choice on the matter. He doesn’t choose and he doesn’t decide. God makes all the decisions. Whereas in Catholic theology man is free to make a choice. He decides his own fate by voluntarily choosing to obey God or disobey Him—which is indeed the correct biblical teaching. That is what makes Protestantism the most damnable heresy of them all. Catholics are right—and Protestants are dead wrong.

Reformed Christians all believe that man has free will to choose what he desires. In addition, Reformed Christians believe that the elect freely come to Christ on their own will because the Father enabled us to see Jesus Christ as being desirable. The retrobates are invited and commanded to come to Christ for live, but they have no desire to come to Christ.

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - Sacred Scripture

Now let’s please get back to the thread topic.

 

[Reuben_J]

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him,

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever. - Hebrews

So what? I have no problem with that. How is that I don’t believe in the suffficiency of Jesus or that I apostate?

 

[fhansen]

The sufficiency of Christ

I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.

It’s not a matter of a higher or lower view-it’s a matter of the correct view. It’s a matter of what God is after in and for man. If Gods purpose was to create man, give him laws he couldn’t possibly fulfill, hold him accountable for not fulfilling them, and then decide to save some from that accountability-and that was mainly it- then He presumably could’ve done that in any number of ways-including preventing the fall to begin with or forgiving man immediately and forgoing the exile of man into the world we know now.

But if Gods chief purpose is really to produce special beings-to mold His creatures into something different using ingredients such as time and struggle against sin and free will and revelation and grace working together so that the being ends up one who knows for himself why He chooses to follow God-unlike his first parents-one who willfully loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, having finally come to understand the value of Love, then we have something special indeed-then we have a reason for the whole drama of this life from beginning to end. If that’s the purpose of Christ’s life and death-not just to save man in spite of his unrighteousness but to justify him fully- to make him truly righteous-as an integral part of his salvation and as a reason for it, then does this life make the most sense. And then is the New Covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31 and quoted in Hebrews 8 & 10 fulfilled, God putting His law in mans mind and writing it on his heart.

 

[zerinus]

Reformed Christians all believe that man has free will to choose what he desires. In addition, Reformed Christians believe that the elect freely come to Christ on their own will because the Father enabled us to see Jesus Christ as being desirable. The retrobates are invited and commanded to come to Christ for live, but they have no desire to come to Christ.

Luther and Calvin both denied man’s ability to make choices that can affect his salvation. They were total predestinarians. They believed and taught that there is nothing that man can do out of his own freewill that can determine his salvation or damnation. It is all pre-determined by an arbitrary act of God. When they said that Catholicism diminishes God’s sovereignty, that is what they meant by it. That is well known. It is not a secret.

Protestants are not only heretics; they are also dishonest and hypocritical. Why don’t you answer the questions put to you by Reuben J and Dancelittleewok properly, instead of messing around, beating about the bush, and skirting round the edges? How does “The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the discussion of sufficiency”? You made the statement; now people want you to explain it. Why don’t you?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Okay, it appears Guanophore does not want to participate on this thread. He posted on the gospel thread last night, addressing me on that thread, and I sent him several pm in regards to this thread. He is welcome to join us when he wants to. So, let’s move on.

Here is a summary of the New Testament wonderful amazing great good news of God:

Adoption through Propitiation

http://therivertoledo.org/Images/cross_sunrise.jpg

It is because of Christ’s perfect and sufficient righteousness, that God’s love in manifested in two ways, through propitiation and adoption. In Protestant theology, adoption through propitiation is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness alone. In Catholic theology, I don’t believe that is true.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Luther and Calvin both denied man’s ability to make choices that can affect his salvation. They were total predestinarians. They believed and taught that there is nothing that man can do out of his own freewill that can determine his salvation or damnation. It is all pre-determined by an arbitrary act of God. When they said that Catholicism diminishes God’s sovereignty, that is what they meant by it. That is well known. It is not a secret.

Protestants are not only heretics; they are also dishonest and hypocritical. Why don’t you answer the questions put to you by Reuben J and Dancelittleewok properly, instead of messing around, beating about the bush, and skirting round the edges? How does “The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the discussion of sufficiency”? You made the statement; now people want you to explain it. Why don’t you?

Please start another thread on predestination. All I can say is that Luther and Calvin were influenced deeply by Saint Augustine the Catholic Bishop. The Catholic Thomist’s view of predestination is very similar to the Reformed view of predestination. I would enjoy discussing the sufficiency of Jesus Christ with you on this thread. Therefore, please stay within the thread topic.

 

[ChosenAndCalled]

I’ll play: As a Reformed believer I believe that Christ’s life, death and resurrection are sufficient to being me into sonship with the Father. I do not need a man-made church to grant me the graces necessary to become united to the Father through the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ on the cross.

It’s about the interpostion of the Catholic church between man and God?

Partial credit?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’ll play: As a Reformed believer I believe that Christ’s life, death and resurrection are sufficient to being me into sonship with the Father. I do not need a man-made church to grant me the graces necessary to become united to the Father through the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ on the cross.

It’s about the interpostion of the Catholic church between man and God?

Partial credit?

Thanks for joining us on this important topic!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Okay, it appears Guanophore does not want to participate on this thread. He posted on the gospel thread last night, addressing me on that thread, and I sent him several pm in regards to this thread. He is welcome to join us when he wants to. So, let’s move on.

Here is a summary of the New Testament wonderful amazing great good news of God:

Adoption through Propitiation

http://therivertoledo.org/Images/cross_sunrise.jpg

It is because of Christ’s perfect and sufficient righteousness, that God’s love in manifested in two ways, through propitiation and adoption. In Protestant theology, adoption through propitiation is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness alone. * In Catholic theology, I don’t believe that is true*.

Can you please define the bolded word? Also, you’ve neglected, why you don’t believe the italicized section: How is Catholicism insufficient in regards to the sufficiency of Christ?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can you please define the bolded word? Also, you’ve neglected, why you don’t believe the italicized section: How is Catholicism insufficient in regards to the sufficiency of Christ?

I don’t mean to just throw out theological links, but propitiation is a biblical word which requires study. It is tied closely to atonement. Here is a cut and paste from an article discussing the extent of the atonement. We don’t want to get into the extent of the atonement, because we are not discussing TULIP. I’ll look for additional articles to explain propitiation too.

Propitiation in the New Testament

 The term "propitiation" (hilasmos) means "satisfaction," "appeasement." Theologically, propitiation means that God's wrath against sin, demanded by His justice, is appeased on account of the death of Christ for sinners.

 There are four primary references in the New Testament where the word "propitiation" is used (cf. Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2;4: 10). Three of the four references clearly teach that propitiation is strictly limited to a definite people, namely, the elect of God.

 Romans 3:25 states that God set forth Christ "a propitiation through faith in his blood." From this reference it may be observed that, if Christ is a propitiation "through faith,"4 He cannot be a propitiation to those who never have faith, and "all men have not faith" (II Thess. 3:2).

 Hebrews 2:17 states that Christ was made a "merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation (should be translated propitiation) for the sins of the people." In context, "the people," are identified as the "children which God hath given" Christ, (v. 13), "the seed of Abraham" (v. 16). Are not "the people" of verse 17 also to be identified with the "many sons" in verse 10 and the "every man" in verse 9 for whom "by the grace of God he should taste death"?

 I John 4:10 reveals the motivating cause of propitiation. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."5 The propitiation is restricted here to the definite pronouns, "we," "us," and "our"; that is, to believers, God's elect. Therefore, it is concluded that at least three of the four major passages on propitiation are restricted in design to God's elect.

the-highway.com/1Jh2.2.html

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
Can you please define the bolded word? Also, you’ve neglected, why you don’t believe the italicized section: How is Catholicism insufficient in regards to the sufficiency of Christ?

Okay, here is a much better article on the doctrine of propitiation in regards to our thread topic.

F A C E T S O F S A L V A T I O N

Propitiation
By Jay Wegter

PROPITIATION – an atoning sacrifice that satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those for whom it is made.

The five pillars in God’s plan of propitiation:

1.) Propitiation is required by God’s character.
2.) Propitiation is initiated by God’s love.
3.) Propitiation is defined by substitution.
4.) Propitiation is accomplished by Christ’s death.
5.) Propitiation is appropriated by faith.

INTRODUCTION: The Need for a Perfect Propitiation

The seriousness of sin.

The dominant problem in the world is sin. It stains every life, disturbs every relationship, fixes itself on every baby, rules the heart of every worldling. It makes us susceptible to disease, suffering, war, death, and ultimately hell. Sin is incurable (Jer 13:23).

frontlinemin.org/propitiation.asp

(Click the link above)

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Okay, here is a much better article on the doctrine of propitiation in regards to our thread topic.

F A C E T S O F S A L V A T I O N

Propitiation
By Jay Wegter

PROPITIATION – an atoning sacrifice that satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those for whom it is made.

The five pillars in God’s plan of propitiation:

1.) Propitiation is required by God’s character.
2.) Propitiation is initiated by God’s love.
3.) Propitiation is defined by substitution.
4.) Propitiation is accomplished by Christ’s death.
5.) Propitiation is appropriated by faith.

INTRODUCTION: The Need for a Perfect Propitiation

The seriousness of sin.

The dominant problem in the world is sin. It stains every life, disturbs every relationship, fixes itself on every baby, rules the heart of every worldling. It makes us susceptible to disease, suffering, war, death, and ultimately hell. Sin is incurable (Jer 13:23).

frontlinemin.org/propitiation.asp

(Click the link above)

Thank you for the link but while I’m reading why don’t you explain your claims about Catholicism? nudge

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thank you for the link but while I’m reading why don’t you explain your claims about Catholicism? nudge

Here is a summary of the New Testament wonderful amazing great good news of God:

Adoption through Propitiation

It is because of Christ’s perfect and sufficient righteousness, that God’s love in manifested in two ways, through propitiation and adoption. In Protestant theology, adoption through propitiation is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness alone. In Catholic theology, I don’t believe that is true.

I think what I posted above is quite a bold claim to make. I am not an expert on Catholic theology, so let’s wait and see if orther Catholics agree or disagree with my bold statement above. It is very important to understand the biblical terms of propitiation and adoption to really get deep into the thread topic about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ for us as Christians. It is not a superfical topic in which we can quickly gloss over. Thanks for your continual patience and participation on this thread.

http://thumbs.photo.net/photo/9417194-sm.jpg

Christ and Him crucified = Adoption through propitiation?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I think what I posted above is quite a bold claim to make. I am not an expert on Catholic theology, so let’s wait and see if orther Catholics agree or disagree with my bold statement above. It is very important to understand the biblical term of propitiation and adoption to really get deep into the thread topic about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ for us as Christians. It is not a superfical topic in which we can quickly gloss over. Thanks for your continual patience and participation on this thread!

Same thing as yesterday, eh? Adam, I don’t like games and I imagine that’s why other Catholics have no longer participated this thread: there seems to be no other purpose than Calvinism evangelicalism using unanswered Catholics claims as bait…

I’ll read that link and respond once you respond to my questions.