The sufficiency of Christ

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Same thing as yesterday, eh? Adam, I don’t like games and I imagine that’s why other Catholics have no longer participated this thread: there seems to be no other purpose than Calvinism channelization using unanswered Catholics claims as bait…

I’ll read that link and respond once you respond to my questions.

Please rest assured that Adoption through Propitiation is not exclusively a Calvinist’s view. There are many non-Calvinist Protestants who believe Adoption through Propitiation just like I do. I believe it is the heart of the gospel of God. The greatest blessing we share as fellow Christians is our sonship (adoption into the family God), calling God as our Heveanly Father (Abba Father). So, I rejoice together with you as my sister in Christ in our sonship.
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” - Romans 8:15

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” - Galatians 4:6
 
I would enjoy discussing the sufficiency of Jesus Christ with you on this thread. Therefore, please stay within the thread topic.
You are the one who is “avoiding the topic”. People want to know what you meant by saying that “The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the discussion of sufficiency”. You made the comment; you started the discussion; now people want to know what you meant by it. Why don’t you tell them?
 
I’ll play: As a Reformed believer I believe that Christ’s life, death and resurrection are sufficient to being me into sonship with the Father. I do not need a man-made church to grant me the graces necessary to become united to the Father through the Holy Spirit and the work of Christ on the cross.

It’s about the interpostion of the Catholic church between man and God?

Partial credit?
Can you explain how the Catholic Church “interposes” between God and man? And can you explain what you mean by “manmade church”? Are you saying that the Catholic Church is manmade, or are you against the idea of a church altogether? Do you mean that there shouldn’t be a church at all, or just the Catholic Church?
 
I think what I posted above is quite a bold claim to make. I am not an expert on Catholic theology, so let’s wait and see if orther Catholics agree or disagree with my bold statement above. It is very important to understand the biblical terms of propitiation and adoption to really get deep into the thread topic about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ for us as Christians. It is not a superfical topic in which we can quickly gloss over. Thanks for your continual patience and participation on this thread.

http://thumbs.photo.net/photo/9417194-sm.jpg

Christ and Him crucified = Adoption through propitiation?
Explained my way 2nd.
Christ atoned for my sins on the cross, I accept and believe that,
I am then Baptized, washed clean inside out of all sin as well as Adam’s sin.
I receive justification.
Iam filled with sanctifying grace and the power of the Holy Spirit to become a new person so as to grow in holiness by fulfilling the commandments of God so that when my life here on earth is over I will be rejoicing with all in heaven forever.AMEN:heaven:Carlan
ps,. Do hope you will forgive me for not going deep, deep into the subject:rolleyes:
 
Can you explain how the Catholic Church “interposes” between God and man? And can you explain what you mean by “manmade church”? Are you saying that the Catholic Church is manmade, or are you against the idea of a church altogether? Do you mean that there shouldn’t be a church at all, or just the Catholic Church?
My understanding is that the Catholic Church stands betwen man and God. It arbitrates for man in some ways.

The Catholic Church is a man-made church, just like Presbyterians, Lutherans and Methodists. It is run by man, ordered by man, established by man. To the extent that a church claims to speak for God it gets between God and man. The Catholic church has lists of mortal sins, requirements that go beyond what God has given us in Scripture, graces that the church can dispense, etc. I, being Reformed, reject that the Catholic Church is the one true church and is Apostically traceable. I see it as just another denomination.

Christ established His church the catholic “Universal” church that is made up of all believers.
 
Explained my way 2nd.
Christ atoned for my sins on the cross, I accept and believe that,
I am then Baptized, washed clean inside out of all sin as well as Adam’s sin.
I receive justification.
Iam filled with sanctifying grace and the power of the Holy Spirit to become a new person so as to grow in holiness by fulfilling the commandments of God so that when my life here on earth is over I will be rejoicing with all in heaven forever.AMEN:heaven:Carlan
ps,. Do hope you will forgive me for not going deep, deep into the subject:rolleyes:
Of course we should stretch each other to increase our affection for God. Do you agree with this?

Christ and Him crucified = Adoption through propitiation?
 
Of course we should stretch each other to increase our affection for God. Do you agree with this?

Christ and Him crucified = Adoption through propitiation?
How many times must your Questions be answered by us . And around and around we go, same ole , same ole. Very tiring. So long, good bye and may God enlighten you! We can’t seem to.:shrug:Carlan
 
How many times must your Questions be answered by us . And around and around we go, same ole , same ole. Very tiring. So long, good bye and may God enlighten you! We can’t seem to.:shrug:Carlan
A HYMN OF GRACE

JESUS, THY BLOOD AND RIGHTEOUSNESS

Jesus, Thy blood and righteousness
My beauty are, my glorious dress;
‘Midst flaming worlds, in these arrayed
With joy shall I lift up my head.

Bold shall I stand in that great day,
For who aught to my charge shall lay?
Fully absolved through these I am,
From sin and fear, from guilt and shame.

Lord, I believe Thy precious blood,
Which, at the mercy seat of God,
Forever doth for sinners plead,
For me, e’en for my soul was shed.

Lord, I believe were sinners more
Than sands upon the ocean shore,
Thou hast for all a ransom paid,
For all a full atonement made.

—Nicolaus L. von Zinzendorf (1700-1760)
Translated by John Wesley (1703-1791)

The lyrics of "Jesus, Thy Blood and Righteousness’ must surely comprise one of the clearest, simplest, and most straightforward poetic expressions of the total efficacy of the Lord Jesus for the salvation of fallen humanity. In each stanza the author proclaims his absolute assurance of being justified before God, not because of any work or merit of his own, but solely because of the blood and righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 64:6 states that “…all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags…” How gracious, then, of God the Father to provide us instead with Jesus’ righteousness as “our glorious dress.” Second Corinthians 5:21 assures us, “for He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

The hymn’s second stanza seems inspired by Rom 8:33-34: “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.”

The final stanza finds scriptural support in 1 Tim 2:5-6: “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

“Jesus, Thy Blood and Righteousness” is one of more than 2,000 hymns written by Nicolaus von Zinzendorf.1 Born at Dresden, Germany, to a noble, wealthy, and highly cultured family, Zinzendorf was educated at Halle and Wittenberg. Influenced both by his pietistic maternal grandmother, and by Francke, a teacher at Halle, "the fundamental ideals of Pietism and a deep interest in foreign missions were inculcated in him."2

Upon completion of legal studies at Wittenberg, Zinzendorf took a post as Councilor to the Elector of Saxony. While serving in this position, he purchased a large estate and offered it for use as a home for religious refugees.3 The largest refugee group to settle on his estate was the Moravians, believers who traced their roots back to fifteenth-century followers of John Hus. The Moravians’ history was one of frequent persecution and ridicule because of their religious zeal and enthusiasm.4 Between 1722 and 1729, about 300 Moravians emigrated to Zinzendorf’s estate, establishing a religious community called Herrnhut.5 Zinzendorf himself became a Moravian minister and bishop.6

In 1735, the Herrnhut congregation published its own hymnal, Das Gesang-Buch der Gemeine in Herrnhut.7 Of the 999 hymns in the collection, 208 were by Zinzendorf. His hymns "reveal not only pietistic influence but also strong evangelical and missionary zeal. Many of them deal with the suffering and death of Christ and are lyric expressions of personal devotion."8

The real birth-moment of Zinzendorf’s religious life is said to have been simultaneous with his study of “Ecce Homo” in the Dusseldorf Gallery, a wonderful painting of Jesus crowned with thorns. Visiting the gallery one day when a young man, he gazed on the sacred face and read the legend superscribed, “All this I have done for Thee; What doest thou for me?” Ever afterwards his motto was "I have but one passion, and that is He, and only He."9

It is to the praise of God that throughout his life Count Zinzendorf continued to focus not on what he was doing for Christ, but on the sole and complete sufficiency of what Christ had done for him. “Jesus, Thy Blood and Righteousness” is an outstanding expression of that focus.

No tunes were included in the Herrnhut hymnal, so the original setting or settings for this hymn are uncertain. More recent hymnals have set the lyrics to various tunes, including “Malvern” and “Uxbridge,” both by Lowell Mason,10 “Germany” by William Gardiner, and “Herr Jesu Christ, Mein’s Lebens Licht,” from a 1625 hymn collection.

Endnotes

1Ian Bradley, The Book of Hymns (Woodstock: Overlook Press, 1989), 92.
 
Adam, do you have any answer for the “problem of free will” which I posed to you in 2 threads over at apologetics? Thanks,
 
I will look again, but this thread is not about free will or TULIP.
It is though, because you’re suggesting that Christ’s crucifixion is not just totally sufficient, but totally automatic. Because that is the main difference in our view points. I don’t disagree that the crucifixion of Christ is in some way in complete, or imperfect or insufficient. I am as would any Catholic, suggest to you that our free will response is what determains whether or not we get the gift of Christ’s totally sufficient, and perfect sacrafice.
 
It is though, because you’re suggesting that Christ’s crucifixion is not just totally sufficient, but totally automatic. Because that is the main difference in our view points. I don’t disagree that the crucifixion of Christ is in some way in complete, or imperfect or insufficient. I am as would any Catholic, suggest to you that our free will response is what determains whether or not we get the gift of Christ’s totally sufficient, and perfect sacrafice.
“Hallelujah What A Savior”

Philip P. Bliss

Man of Sorrows! What a name
For the Son of God who came;
Ruined sinners to reclaim,
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Bearing shame and scoffing rude,
In my place condemned He stood;
Sealed my pardon with His blood,
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Guilty vile and helpless we,
Spotless Lamb of God was He;
Full atonement can it be,
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Lifted up was He to die,
“It is finished!” was His cry;
Now in heaven, exalted high,
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

When He comes, our glorious King,
All His ransomed home to bring;
Then anew this song we’ll sing,
Hallelujah! What a Savior!

© Public Domain
 
When a Protestant hymn is played on a Catholic radio station, are we in agreement in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ as written by the hymn writer as he meant by it?

Amazing Grace Lyrics
by Englishman John Newton
(1725-1807)

"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me…
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

T’was Grace that taught…
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear…
the hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares…
we have already come.
T’was Grace that brought us safe thus far…
and Grace will lead us home.

The Lord has promised good to me…
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be…
as long as life endures.

When we’ve been here ten thousand years…
bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise…
then when we’ve first begun.
 
Yeah, your hymns really dont’ solve the problem I presented though. I admit they’re lovely though.
 
Yeah, your hymns really dont’ solve the problem I presented though. I admit they’re lovely though.
In regards to the thread topic of the sufficiency of Christ, are you in theological agreement with the hymn writer of Amazing Grace?
 
In regards to the thread topic of the sufficiency of Christ, are you in theological agreement with the hymn writer of Amazing Grace?
I am in agreement assuming we disregard everything up until the point in time which “saving grace” is received. i.e. I agree with the results, the question left is what was the human response required prior to the reception of saving grace.

But as I’ve posted many times over, the offical catholic teaching is that Grace alone, saves us.
 
We don’t believe John Newtons salvation was a one-time event.
Eh, there really isn’t a whole lot about Amazing Grace we as Catholics disagree with. That’s why it’s a-ok to be played at mass durring christmas time and frequently is. Where we disagree with is how you get saving grace… In so far as to whether or not you can “fall away”… I beleive Adam has indicated to me previously that he doesn’t subscribe to once saved always saved if I understood him correctly. And I don’t know that I see a once saved, always saved suggestion in Amazing Grace.
 
We don’t believe John Newtons salvation was a one-time event.
Okay, would it be accurate to say that John Newton’s view would have a much higher view of the sufficiency of Christ than the Catholic view, why or why not? This is not a trap question, but more of a theological question on the work of Christ in regards to the sufficiency of Christ for sinners.
 
Eh, there really isn’t a whole lot about Amazing Grace we as Catholics disagree with. That’s why it’s a-ok to be played at mass durring christmas time and frequently is. Where we disagree with is how you get saving grace… In so far as to whether or not you can “fall away”… I beleive Adam has indicated to me previously that he doesn’t subscribe to once saved always saved if I understood him correctly. And I don’t know that I see a once saved, always saved suggestion in Amazing Grace.
John Newton the slave trader was much more than a hymn writer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Newton

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/1485_John_Newton_The_Tough_Roots_of_His_Habitual_Tenderness/
 
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