The sufficiency of Christ

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Adam, I believe you’ve had six pages of speaking with Catholics about the sufficiency of Christ.

Please answer my questions.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
Adam, I believe you’ve had six pages of speaking with Catholics about the sufficiency of Christ.

Please answer my questions.
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I don’t remember the question exactly, but much of this comes down to how we view the biblical doctrine of justification. As Protestants, we believe that perfect righteousness and sinlessness is required to have a relationship with God as your Heavenly Father. If this is true, then how are we able to approach God on a daily basis?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I don’t remember the question exactly, but much of this comes down to how we view the biblical doctrine of justification. As Protestants, we believe that perfect righteousness and sinlessness is required to have a relationship with God as your Heavenly Father. If this is true, then how are we able to approach God on a daily basis?
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See page 1 of this thread.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
You’ve made these statements but not said why you believe the above. Why do you believe that the Catholic position is lower in terms of Christ’s sufficiency? How are the Protestants and Catholics views different?

Thanks!
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The righteousness of Christ alone is the only righteousness that is needed to be eternally forgiven and adopted into the family of God since His righteousness becomes our righteousness through faith. So, Christ’s righteousness alone is completely sufficient for us for forgiveness of past, present and future sins, .and eternal reconciliation and peace with God, and is the sole basis for our permanent eternal adoption into the family of God. Through Christ alone, God is our eternal Heavenly Father in which we can always call upon God as Abba Father.

In my understanding of the Catholic Faith, it is not by the righteousness of Christ alone which is your basis of forgiveness and eternal adoption into the family of God. To a Catholic, he or she must be made righteous to enter the kingdom of God, and have God as your eternal Heavenly Father. Therefore, the righteousness of Christ alone is not sufficient for you. If my understanding of the Catholic Faith is wrong, please forgive me and correct my understanding.
 
ChosenAndCalled said:
My understanding is that the Catholic Church stands betwen man and God. It arbitrates for man in some ways.
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Well, you will have to explain that. I hope you didn’t expect me (or the Catholics) to just take your word for it, did you?
The Catholic Church is a man-made church, just like Presbyterians, Lutherans and Methodists. It is run by man, ordered by man, established by man.
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Do you know of any other church, true or false, that isn’t?
To the extent that a church claims to speak for God it gets between God and man.
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I should have thought that was the characteristic of God’s true Church. The Catholic Church may not be God’s true Church; but is certainly claims to be; and that claim would be consistent with being God’s true Church.
The Catholic church has lists of mortal sins, requirements that go beyond what God has given us in Scripture, graces that the church can dispense, etc.
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You have to explain that. I don’t know what you are referring to.
I, being Reformed, reject that the Catholic Church is the one true church and is Apostically traceable. I see it as just another denomination.
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That means that it is no different from your church, whatever that is!
Christ established His church the catholic “Universal” church that is made up of all believers.
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So you think that the Church that Jesus established didn’t have ministers, sacraments, and an organizational structure? On what basis?
 
2nd_Adam said:
The righteousness of Christ alone is the only righteousness that is needed to be eternally forgiven and adopted into the family of God since His righteousness becomes our righteousness through faith. So, Christ’s righteousness alone is completely sufficient for us for forgiveness of past, present and future sins, .and eternal reconciliation and peace with God, and is the sole basis for our permanent eternal adoption into the family of God. Through Christ alone, God is our eternal Heavenly Father in which we can always call upon God as Abba Father.

In my understanding of the Catholic Faith, it is not by the righteousness of Christ alone which is your basis of forgiveness and eternal adoption into the family of God. To a Catholic, he or she must be **made righteous **to enter the kingdom of God, and have God as your eternal Heavenly Father. Therefore, the righteousness of Christ alone is not sufficient for you. If my understanding of the Catholic Faith is wrong, please forgive me and correct my understanding.
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How do you think the Catholic becomes righteous? Also, what happens when you sin according to your theology?

crazzeto:
the offical catholic teaching is that Grace alone, saves us.
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How is it insufficient?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I don’t remember the question exactly, but much of this comes down to how we view the biblical doctrine of justification. As Protestants, we believe that perfect righteousness and sinlessness is required to have a relationship with God as your Heavenly Father. If this is true, then how are we able to approach God on a daily basis?
Click to expand...
As Protestants, you believe in “justification by faith alone without any works”. In other words, there is nothing you can do that can contribute to your being saved. Your personal volition plays no role in the matter. You are saved or damned by an arbitrary act of God, whether you like it or not.
 
zerinus said:
As Protestants, you believe in “justification by faith alone without any works”. In other words, there is nothing you can do that can contribute to your being saved. Your personal volition plays no role in the matter. You are saved or damned by an arbitrary act of God, whether you like it or not.
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Could you please stop what you are doing? You have been telling me what I believe for quite awhile. Don’t you think I am the best person to post what I personally believe? You have intentionally or maybe unintentionally posted several times a very distorted and untrue view of what Protestants and Reformed Christians believe. I think you should stick to the Mormon Faith as the expert on Mormonism. Let the Protestants and Reformed Christians post on Catholic Answers in what we believe. The Mormon Faith is outside of historic Christianity, therefore I don’t receive you as a brother in Christ. If you want to stick up and represent the Catholic Faith, then please convert to the Catholic Faith and I will receive you as a brother in Christ. It is quite obvious that the Mormon Faith is a copy-cat of the Catholic Faith.
 
2nd_Adam said:
John Newton the slave trader was much more than a hymn writer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Newton

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/1485_John_Newton_The_Tough_Roots_of_His_Habitual_Tenderness/
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Appriciated, but as I was suggesting there’s nothing “not catholic” about amazing grace. Rather it fits in very well with the catholic understanding of saving grace, provided you’re looking through a lens only at the saving grace… Rather than considering the full process of salvation.
 
2nd_Adam said:
The righteousness of Christ alone is the only righteousness that is needed to be eternally forgiven and adopted into the family of God since His righteousness becomes our righteousness through faith. So, Christ’s righteousness alone is completely sufficient for us for forgiveness of past, present and future sins, . . .
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In other words, you don’t need to repent in order to be forgiven. All you have to do is to “believe,” and you are done! That is the heresy of Protestantism, and it is anti-biblical.
In my understanding of the Catholic Faith, it is not by the righteousness of Christ alone which is your basis of forgiveness and eternal adoption into the family of God. To a Catholic, he or she must be made righteous to enter the kingdom of God, and have God as your eternal Heavenly Father. Therefore, the righteousness of Christ alone is not sufficient for you. If my understanding of the Catholic Faith is wrong, please forgive me and correct my understanding.
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Catholics (like Mormons) believe what the Bible teaches. They believe you have to repent before you can be forgiven. Just saying “I believe” won’t cut it.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
How do you think the Catholic becomes righteous? Also, what happens when you sin according to your theology?

crazzeto:

How is it insufficient?
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Both Catholics and Protestants agree that we are being made righteous by God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to make us into the image of Christ. It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit uses the Catholic Church through sacraments and other ways in this process. The Protestant could say that the Holy Spirit is using prayer, Scripture, and the sacraments as are primary means of grace that the Spirit uses to transforms us into the image of Christ. However, how we see things differently is our position on how we are reconciled to God and adopted into the family of God. We have peace with God and adopted into the family of God on the sole basis of the righteousness of another. I believe Luther called this an alien righteousness because it is a righteousness apart from our own personal righetousness as we grow in Christ.
 
zerinus MORMON said:
In other words, you don’t need to repent in order to be forgiven. All you have to do is to “believe,” and you are done! That is the heresy of Protestantism, and it is anti-biblical.

Catholics (like Mormons) believe what the Bible teaches. They believe you have to repent before you can be forgiven. Just saying “I believe” won’t cut it.
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There you go putting words in my mouth again. Where did I post that repentance is not necessary? As much as it appears you are trying to deceive my Catholic siblings, the Catholic Catechism never calls Mormons to be siblings in Christ. I only tolerate you at this point so you too can know the One True Triune God that Catholics and Protestants worship together in unity. With all kindness and respect, Joseph Smith is a false prophet, and you worship a false Christ and hold to a false gospel. Please stop trying to deceive my Catholic siblings!
 
2nd_Adam said:
Could you please stop what you are doing? You have been telling me what I believe for quite awhile. Don’t you think I am the best person to post what I personally believe?
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I am telling what the Protestants believe. It is up to you to decide whether you want to be a Protestant or something else.
You have intentionally or maybe unintentionally posted several times a very distorted and untrue view of what Protestants and Reformed Christians believe. I think you should stick to the Mormon Faith as the expert on Mormonism.
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If I have, it is up to your to disprove it, which you haven’t.
Let the Protestants and Reformed Christians post on Catholic Answers in what we believe.
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In other words, you want me to let you get away with your falsehoods! LOL! If you thought I was going to do that, you have another thing coming.
The Mormon Faith is outside of historic Christianity, therefore I don’t receive you as a brother in Christ.
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Don’t worry, the feeling is mutual!
If you want to stick up and represent the Catholic Faith, then please convert to the Catholic Faith and I will receive you as a brother in Christ. It is quite obvious that the Mormon Faith is a copy-cat of the Catholic Faith.
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I respect the Catholic Church, and I defend true doctrine wherever it comes from. If it comes from Catholicism I will defend it; if it comes from Protestantism I will defend it; and if it comes from any other religion I will defend it.
 
zerinus said:
I am telling what the Protestants believe. It is up to you whether you want to decide whether you want to be a Protestant or something else.

If I have, it is up to your to disprove it, which you haven’t.

In other words, you want me to let you get away with your falsehoods! LOL! If you thought I was going to do that, you have another thing coming.

Don’t worry, the feeling is mutual!

I respect the Catholic Church, and I defend true doctrine wherever it comes from. If it comes from Catholicism I will defend it; if it comes from Protestantism I will defend it; and if it comes from any other religion I will defend it.
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Please stop trying to deceive my Catholic siblings!
 
2nd_Adam said:
There you go putting words in my mouth again. Where did I post that repentance is not necessary? As much as it appears you are trying to deceive my Catholic siblings, the Catholic Catechism never calls Mormons to be siblings in Christ. I only tolerate you at this point so you too can know the One True Triune God that Catholics and Protestants worship together in unity. With all kindness and respect, Joseph Smith is a false prophet, and you worship a false Christ and hold to a false gospel. Please stop trying to deceive my Catholic siblings!
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Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and he established God’s only true Church in the world today. 🙂
 
Z and Adam, please stop.

This isn’t productive and is bound to lock down this thread faster than you both can say “charity.”

puts Z in one corner and Adam in the other

Take a breath and repeat after me:

“Love one another as I’ve loved you”

P.S. I’ll be busy tonight and probably won’t be on until much later or the morning.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
Z and Adam, please stop.

This isn’t productive and is bound to lock down this thread faster than you both can say “charity.”

puts Z in one corner and Adam in the other

Take a breath and repeat after me:

“Love one another as I’ve loved you”

P.S. I’ll be busy tonight and probably won’t be on until much later or the morning.
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You are right that we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. It is because we are to love our Mormon neighbors as ourselves; we speak the truth in love to people like Zerinus and respectfully tell them that they believe in a false gospel and a false Christ. Mormons are not your brother and sisters in Christ, nor are they my Christian siblings.
 
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