The sufficiency of Christ

[SteveGC]

“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine

I personally believe if Augustine lived during the Reformation, he would have been one of the major Protestant Reformers.

Oh, I have to agree.

Except for the “Protestant” part…

Augustine’s reform efforts would have been INTERNAL and UNITIVE, as opposed to EXTERNAL and DIVISIVE. He would have undoubtedly preserved the full authority of The Church, while orchestrating a monumental reform from within. Oh, but to have had Augustine alive in the mid 16th century!

 

[benidict]

I have known many dear Mormon friends and neighbors throughout my life. I just try to share the gospel with them the best that I can. I almost always take the time to share the truth with Mormon missionaries when I see them. I am currently sharing the historic Christian faith and the biblical Jesus Christ with a work friend who is an elder in the Mormon church. Actually, he approached me first since he knew that I was a Christian. You are not loving your Mormon neighbor Zerinus by making him think that he has peace and reconciliation with God through the Mormon Jesus. Speak the truth in love if you truly want to love your Mormon neighbor. ! If you aren’t able to understand what I am exhorting you to do, please take the time and have Mormon missionaries share what they believe at your home in Hawaii!

http://piedpatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/mormon-missionaries.jpg

Zerinus, please send over some LDS missionaries to visit my brother Benidict in Hawaii!

BTW… Mormon sources such as the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are not accepted by the Magisterium as being part of the Word of God (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition). Therefore, they should not be used on this thread within our discussion!

hi brother 2nd, if you read my post to our mormon friend, i was very honest with him. i told him i do not believe the BOM is true, i do not accept mormanism as Christian. however. i do belive there are individual mormons who are christians. also if you have had a chance to read some of my other responses to mormons such as diana, you will see that i do point out where they are in error. but that does not mean i have to ignore our friends. my main point was that i was glad to find a mormon that could rightly divide the book of mormon so that it makes sense to someone with just a highschool education like me. and no i do not believe these are scriptures. no more than i believe that the koran, vedas or buddahs teachings are christian. but that does not mean i dont study them to try to undertand them better. and lets admit it. without a person who knows how to properly understand their book, we can get at whole lot wrong and out of context. just look at the protestants with the bible…my apologies…cheap shot. please forgive me 2nd,and yes i would welcom a visit by a mormon missionary, he wouldnt succeed in converting me, but i know we would have a long edifying conversation. God bless you 2nd. and i got a palm tree reserved with cold corona.

 

[Monica4316]

The sufficiency of Christ

I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.

that’s not true, we just believe that the way Christ’s sacrifice is applied to us happens through more than just faith. (but also the Sacraments, etc.) This is Biblical cause Christ Himself said we must be baptized ‘by water and the Spirit’ to go to Heaven.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Benedict said “I don’t believe the Book of Mormon to be true.” Whence did she accept another gospel? Is true charity bestowed upon only the elect by the elect?

Adam, the bolded part is your interpretation of Scripture. Since you’ve brought up Adam and Eve, why not answer my questions on post 220 and bring this thread on track, huh?

Originally Posted by benidict
hi 2nd. so i am right? this is what you were trying to draw out in your thread? also it is nice you have the power to judge that our mormon friend is outside the circle of the family of God. im glad you have been given a power even our beloved Pontiff, has not claimed. gee, it must be nice to have a neatly packaged knowledge, about who is accepted by God and who is not. so since you wont, i will include him with us here. and you will love your mormon neighbor as yourself. please…

I have interperted Bendict’s posting to say that Mormons are part of the family of God in Christ. Please clarify my understanding.

 

[2nd_Adam]

hi brother 2nd, if you read my post to our mormon friend, i was very honest with him. i told him i do not believe the BOM is true, i do not accept mormanism as Christian. however. i do belive there are individual mormons who are christians. also if you have had a chance to read some of my other responses to mormons such as diana, you will see that i do point out where they are in error. but that does not mean i have to ignore our friends. my main point was that i was glad to find a mormon that could rightly divide the book of mormon so that it makes sense to someone with just a highschool education like me. and no i do not believe these are scriptures. no more than i believe that the koran, vedas or buddahs teachings are christian. but that does not mean i dont study them to try to undertand them better. and lets admit it. without a person who knows how to properly understand their book, we can get at whole lot wrong and out of context. just look at the protestants with the bible…my apologies…cheap shot. please forgive me 2nd,and yes i would welcom a visit by a mormon missionary, he wouldnt succeed in converting me, but i know we would have a long edifying conversation. God bless you 2nd. and i got a palm tree reserved with cold corona.

Do you believe Z has the Spirit of God dwelling in Him? Please expound your conclusion.

 

[zerinus]

Do you believe Z has the Spirit of God dwelling in Him? Please expound your conclusion.

You know they accused Jesus of having Beelzebub. This is what He replied to them:

Matthew 12:

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

It is the reply that I give.

 

[benidict]

Do you believe Z has the Spirit of God dwelling in Him? Please expound your conclusion.

ok brother 2nd. can you in all honestly say, that z does NOT have the Spirit of God dwelling in him? i cannot say he does or doesnt honestly. im not God. what would his fruits tell me? i dont know. havent had the pleasure of his company. and no. i do not believe the mormon Church is within the fold, i have pretty much stated that. but then again, neither are the protestants. you are all seperated brethren. if you were in the fold you would be Catholic. i have stated time and again that i believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ and his apostles founded. none other. but i do believe there are true Christians within these systems that are in error. i could never say that you do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in you 2nd. and i would not want to quetion how he is working salvation out in your life as well as my mormon friends. to judge weather a person is redeemed and working out their salvation with fear and trembling, is for God to do. not i. the Pope would not even claim to be able to do this. who then are you or i to say. Got the palm tree reserved and i have non alchoholic and non caffinated drinks for our mormon friends. lol! God bless you 2nd.

 

[SteveGC]

Do you believe Z has the Spirit of God dwelling in Him? Please expound your conclusion.

Well, the normative means is valid water baptism (accomplished with prerequisite faith)…but since God is not bound to His sacraments, no one on this earth is at liberty to conclude the indwelling of any other person. Nor should the answer to your question effect your charity toward that person.

And I hate to burst the ecumenical bubble you are over-inflating here, but I really don’t think that if you sat down with Pope Benedict and discussed Catholic soteriology, that you would walk away feeling as chummy as you seem to on here. Now, I’m all for re-union of separated brethren, but let’s do it in context and without compromise, and without presumption of teachings without full clarification from those directly taught those teachings.

 

[benidict]

I have interperted Bendict’s posting to say that Mormons are part of the family of God in Christ. Please clarify my understanding.

yes 2nd i do believe that SOME mormons are part of the family of God in Christ. dont think thats any mystery. im not ashamed of it and not afraid to admit it. just like yourself i am happy to call some mormons brothers and sisters in the Lord. how many protestants were run thru the media slime because of prop 8? our mormon friends sure were. and the Catholic Church launched a commercial in defense of them, because we worked hand in hand with them. love in Christ my brother… NOW HUG YOUR MORMON BROTHER!:grouphug:cmon brother 2nd you know you want to…

 

[zerinus]

yes 2nd i do believe that SOME mormons are part of the family of God in Christ. dont think thats any mystery. im not ashamed of it and not afraid to admit it. just like yourself i am happy to call some mormons brothers and sisters in the Lord. how many protestants were run thru the media slime because of prop 8? our mormon friends sure were. and the Catholic Church launched a commercial in defense of them, because we worked hand in hand with them. love in Christ my brother… NOW HUG YOUR MORMON BROTHER!:grouphug:cmon brother 2nd you know you want to…

Thank you. I think that all mankind are part of the family of God:

Acts 17:

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

 

[benidict]

Thank you. I think that all mankind are part of the family of God:

Acts 17:

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

and thank you brother z. vs 28 is interesting since paul was quoting from a pagan source. and yes. i have had many deep discussions with my priest on this. he is of jewish ancestry. we have discussed the Jews that died in the holocaust. that many of them were seeking God with their whole heart soul and mind. and we believe that Christ can reveal himself even in the last part of a persons life. how about the thief on the cross? also i think brother 2nd would do well to approach people the way the apostle paul did. MEN OF EPHESUS, I SEE YOU ARE RELIGIOUS, I SEE YOU HAVE AN ALTAR TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. IT IS HE WHO I WISH TO REVEAL TO YOU. paraphrased of course. but i saw no railing accusations of heresy here. i saw no condemnation of these people. he pointed out what they were doing right. and then where they were in error. in love. how many people, Jews Muslims and yes Christians are seeking God throughout their whole life, find him at the end? as for me, it took 38 years of searching. i dont feel proud of being a Catholic, i am however extremely humbled that this was revealed to me through ordinary as well as extraordinary means. i love the verses you picked. they are beautifully chosen. hope you had a wonderful sacrament meeting today.God bless you and yours.

 

[TheosisM]

Mormons and Catholics can stand together against the falsehood of monergism.

And Mormons, feel free to quote from your scriptures to show your viewpoints. There is nothing wrong with that. Don’t let 2nd Adam try to control what you can and can’t post, or try to make this a Catholics and Calvinists vs. Mormons thread.

 

[benidict]

Mormons and Catholics can stand together against the falsehood of monergism.

And Mormons, feel free to quote from your scriptures to show your viewpoints. There is nothing wrong with that. Don’t let 2nd Adam try to control what you can and can’t post, or try to make this a Catholics and Calvinists vs. Mormons thread.

:grouphug:

 

[2nd_Adam]

yes 2nd i do believe that SOME mormons are part of the family of God in Christ. dont think thats any mystery. im not ashamed of it and not afraid to admit it. just like yourself i am happy to call some mormons brothers and sisters in the Lord. how many protestants were run thru the media slime because of prop 8? our mormon friends sure were. and the Catholic Church launched a commercial in defense of them, because we worked hand in hand with them. love in Christ my brother… NOW HUG YOUR MORMON BROTHER!:grouphug:cmon brother 2nd you know you want to…

Hi brother,

Your view is simply an opinion unsupported by the Magisterium. Please show me that the Catholic Church receives Mormons as your brothers and sisters in Christ through an official document such as the Catholic Catechism. Until you are able to do that, your are posting personal subjective views outside the Catholic Faith and the historic Christian Faith.

Your basis of unity based on a moral agenda is not a union based on Christ. Muslims would also support the same moral views that you share with Mormons. Truth divides my friend and brother. You cannot just throw out the word brother in Christ without historic Christian doctrine which can be defined by historic creeds. The Trinity, and the co-eternity of Christ cannot be thrown out as being non-essential because you agree with Mormon morality.

Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and he established God’s only true Church in the world today.

Do you have a basic understanding of the Mormon gospel? Historic Christianity is apostate (much blame pointing at the Catholic Church) for 1,900 + years, and God had to restore the apostate church through the Angel Moroni and Joseph Smith. You are an apostate Christian just like me according to the Mormon gospel. Here is my exhortation to you as my brother in Christ…

Judgment on False Teachers

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. - Jude 1:3

 

[benidict]

Hi brother,

Your view is simply an opinion unsupported by the Magisterium. Please show me that the Catholic Church receives Mormons as your brothers and sisters in Christ through an official document such as the Catholic Catechism. Until you are able to do that, your are posting personal subjective views outside the Catholic Faith and the historic Christian Faith.

Your basis of unity based on a moral agenda is not a union based on Christ. Muslims would also support the same moral views that you share with Mormons. Truth divides my friend and brother. You cannot just throw out the word brother in Christ without historic Christian doctrine which can be defined by historic creeds. The Trinity, and the co-eternity of Christ cannot be thrown out as being non-essential because you agree with Mormon morality.

unsupported by the magisterium brother 2nd? i think not. section 817-822 of the Catholic Catachism adresses this. and yes the way this is written, you could include people in the mormon church in here too. read section 819. also read what is written about the muslims in section 841, and the people of israel in section 839. so no i do not see how my view is outside the bounds of the magisterium. if you want to point to the baptismal question. there are several protestant denominations that the Church requires to be properly baptized upon their conversion. also it is my understanding that many of todays mormons do not utilize the BOM as much as their bible. so you may very well have mormons who believe in the trinity within their church. you cannot say this isnt true. the same God who revealed the Truth of Catholicism to me using a Jewish believer who happened to be lutheran and got me studying the Church fathers, may very well use the mormon church to draw others to do the same. i can say the same as you about protestants. some deny the trinity. and the creeds? many new creeds have popped up in protestantism. how are they any better than the mormons? love in Christ brother,NOW HUG YOUR MORMON BROTHER:grouphug:you know you want to 2nd. cmon… z is waiting.

 

[2nd_Adam]

unsupported by the magisterium brother 2nd? i think not. section 817-822 of the Catholic Catachism adresses this. and yes the way this is written, you could include people in the mormon church in here too. read section 819. also read what is written about the muslims in section 841, and the people of israel in section 839. so no i do not see how my view is outside the bounds of the magisterium. if you want to point to the baptismal question. there are several protestant denominations that the Church requires to be properly baptized upon their conversion. also it is my understanding that many of todays mormons do not utilize the BOM as much as their bible. so you may very well have mormons who believe in the trinity within their church. you cannot say this isnt true. the same God who revealed the Truth of Catholicism to me using a Jewish believer who happened to be lutheran and got me studying the Church fathers, may very well use the mormon church to draw others to do the same. i can say the same as you about protestants. some deny the trinity. and the creeds? many new creeds have popped up in protestantism. how are they any better than the mormons? love in Christ brother,NOW HUG YOUR MORMON BROTHER:grouphug:you know you want to 2nd. cmon… z is waiting.

I started this thread on this very topic about Mormons being your Christian siblings.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=397605

I’ve already seen a thread about Muslims and Jews too which appeared to cause mass confusion between Catholics. Are Muslims, Jews, and Mormons the mission field, or are they your brothers and sisters in Christ. Let’s see if other Catholics agree with your interpretation of the Catholic Catechism… that the Church receives Mormons as Christian siblings. Sacred Tradition just like Sacred Scripture does not allow for private interpertation.

Maybe we need another thread about the necessity of the historic Jesus Christ revealed in Sacred Scripture as the only means for reconciliation to God? Do you believe the Muslim Jesus and the Mormon Jesus saves sinners from their sins? Can Jews reject Jesus as the Christ and still be saved? If so, on what basis are their sins atoned for?

 

[benidict]

I started this thread on this very topic about Mormons being your Christian siblings.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=397605

I’ve already seen a thread about Muslims and Jews too which appeared to cause mass confusion between Catholics. Are Muslims, Jews, and Mormons the mission field, or are they your brothers and sisters in Christ. Let’s see if other Catholics agree with your interpretation of the Catholic Catechism… that the Church receives Mormons as Christian siblings. Sacred Tradition just like Sacred Scripture does not allow for private interpertation.

Maybe we need another thread about the necessity of the histroc Jesus Christ revealed in Sacred Scripture as the only means for reconciliation to God? Do you believe the Muslim Jesus and the Mormon Jesus saves sinners from their sins?

:grouphug:so i take it that you are not going to give z a hug…

 

[zerinus]

Do you have a basic understanding of the Mormon gospel? Historic Christianity is apostate (much blame pointing at the Catholic Church) for 1,900 + years, and God had to restore the apostate church through the Angel Moroni and Joseph Smith. You are an apostate Christian just like me according to the Mormon gospel. Here is my exhortation to you as my brother in Christ…

Falsehood! We do believe that the early Christian Church apostatized; but we do not “blame” the Catholic Church for it. The Catholic Church is itself a victim of that Apostasy, not the perpetrator of it. It is a noble and great historical Christian institution. It is the Protestants, and especially Calvinists who have always called the Catholic Church evil and the church of the devil and the whore of Babylon etc., not us.

 

[2nd_Adam]

:grouphug:so i take it that you are not going to give z a hug…

I will hug Z when he repents of the Mormon gospel, confess that Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and believes in the historic gospel. I don’t mind if he leaves the Mormon Church for a Protestant Church, Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, or Anglican Church. The circle of life is reserved for Christians who hold to the historic Christian Faith. Christian unity is centered around essential Christian Truth. Z is the mission field and not part of the circle of life found in Christ!

:grouphug:

 

[benidict]

Falsehood! We do believe that the early Christian Church apostatized; but we do not “blame” the Catholic Church for it. The Catholic Church is itself a victim of that Apostasy, not the perpetrator of it. It is a noble and great historical Christian institution. It is the Protestants, and especially Calvinists who have always called the Catholic Church evil and the church of the devil and the whore of Babylon etc., not us.

hi z. should be interesting to see where his new thread goes. dont know if dancelittleewok ever got her answeres. hope so. you and i can discuss the " apostasy" some other time. should be interesting. hopefully people who can articulate our view way better than myself can join in to talk with you. God bless you and yours.