The sufficiency of Christ

[bookgirl32]

I will hug Z when he repents of the Mormon gospel, confess that Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and believes in the historic gospel. I don’t mind if he leaves the Mormon Church for a Protestant Church, Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, or Anglican Church. The circle of life is reserved for Christians who hold to the historic Christian Faith. Christian unity is centered around essential Christian Truth. Z is the mission field and not part of the circle of life found in Christ!

:grouphug:

2nd, don’t you at least believe that God loves Mormons? Even though they may not be following His teachings correctly, He still loves them?

 

[benidict]

I will hug Z when he repents of the Mormon gospel, confess that Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and believes in the historic gospel. I don’t mind if he leaves the Mormon Church for a Protestant Church, Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, or Anglican Church. The circle of life is reserved for Christians who hold to the historic Christian Faith. Christian unity is centered around essential Christian Truth. Z is the mission field and not part of the circle of life found in Christ!

:grouphug:

at least there is hope brother 2nd. and yes i would love to see z and yourself join the fold… by the way. would you ever confess calvin was a false prophet?? i apologize… couldnt resist couldnt resist…God bless you 2nd. oh! did you ever answere dancelittleewok? just curious love in Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Adam and Eve definitely had free will to obey the command of God, unlike ourselves. Therefore, Adam and Eve had a choice and ability to obey and please God on their own. We are born with a will that is in bondage to our fallen nature, choosing freely what we desire which is not Christ, but rather we choose sin, rebellion, and death.

How do you account for all the Scripture and Apostolic Teaching that indicate we do continue to desire God, and to seek Him, in spite of the fact that we are in bondage to sin?

 That is why Christ came, to save us from the penalty of sin, and to free us from our sin nature, changing our wills from the inclination of sin to the inclination of righteousness.

Being inclined to sin is not equivalent to the lacking desire for the good.

After-all, we both embrace Augustine in reagards to original sin and are inability to choose God on own power without the help of God.

The part of Augustine that you don’t embrace is that he was Catholic in his faith. He believed that, though we are inclined toward sin due to the Fall, our hearts are restless until they rest in God. We have, created within us, the desire for God.

 

[guanophore]

Here is a quote from John Calvin on predestination:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion II, 21, 5.)

I don’t understand why they try to purport that God did not create some for damnation. Perhaps this is one aspect of Calvin’s thought from which the modern Refomed have departed?

Of course Christ is fully sufficient if He really only died for those that were not damned. He would not be able to save any who were pre-ordained for damnation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t understand why they try to purport that God did not create some for damnation. Perhaps this is one aspect of Calvin’s thought from which the modern Refomed have departed?

Of course Christ is fully sufficient if He really only died for those that were not damned. He would not be able to save any who were pre-ordained for damnation.

A Catholic Thomist view of predestination is quite similar to a Calvinist’s view of predestination. That belongs on the Calvinist’s thread. Both views of theology share a positive negative schema of double-predestination.

 

[2nd_Adam]

at least there is hope brother 2nd. and yes i would love to see z and yourself join the fold… by the way. would you ever confess calvin was a false prophet?? i apologize… couldnt resist couldnt resist…God bless you 2nd. oh! did you ever answere dancelittleewok? just curious love in Christ.

Your deficient Reformed Baptist roots is showing. Padeo baptist rule!

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, don’t you at least believe that God loves Mormons? Even though they may not be following His teachings correctly, He still loves them?

Does God love the unbeilever (those still united to Adam)? Or does God’s wrath hang over their heads for their cosmic rebellion, and distorting the gospel of God? What does God say in His Word (Rom 1). How about John the Baptist and the day of wrath? What is the second coming about for the unbeliever?

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thes 1

Through the Mormon gospel, they either know God or they don’t.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Paul

 

[fhansen]

I think this thread has served to spell out some similarities-and major differences- between our faiths. While all non-Catholic Christian denominations consider themselves to be the restored Church in some capacity or another, and while they all possess some truth, only the Catholic Church has the full truth as revealed to mankind 2 millennia ago-private interpretations of Scripture -and private revelations-notwithstanding.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think this thread has served to spell out some similarities-and major differences- between our faiths. While all non-Catholic Christian denominations considered themselves to be the restored Church in some capacity or another, and while they all possess some truth, only the Catholic Church has the full truth as revealed to mankind 2 millennia ago-private interpretations of Scripture -and private revelations-notwithstanding.

This thread is not about the Catholic Church being the One True Church, nor is it about the various Protestant denominations. The thread is about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ for sinners. Do we as Christians need more than the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ to save us from our sins, and secure our eternal adoption? Can we call God our Heavenly Father as our eternal Heavenly Father today, or can God revoke His adoption and sonship from you based on something that you do or don’t do? Look at earthly adoptions, and how earthly parents adopt orphans unconditionally. Do earthly parents adopt infants who they later abandon in life? If they do, then do we consider this abandonment as an ungodly, unloving act, or even a criminal act? Christ is sufficient for you in your sonship. We are in the kingdom of God eternally based on the perfection of our elder brother. God in Christ is sufficient for me and you, even though you don’t believe it. Please please mediate on my two Catholic links on my signature.

http://landofmysojourn.net/sitebuilder/images/cross_sunrise-255x336.jpg

Adoption through Propitiation… is it true?

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? - Rom 8

 

[crazzeto]

Let me try re-explaining this to Adam. I just cooked up this analogy yesterday and a different Protestant seemed to like it. Perhaps it will click with Adam finally. I’m going to modifiy it slightly though, I just thought of a way to clairify it a bit more:

God’s grace is something that can not be earned through any means. Not through faith, not through works. There is nothing a man can do to merit Gods grace. Rather, grace was a free gift, poured out unto the world in the fulfillment of the old covenent with Jesus hanging from a tree.

A man (not just a Catholic, but a man of any faith) can merly cooperate or choose to not cooperate with Gods free gift. Or, I guess for more simplistic terms, since we already accept that grace is a free gift think of it this way:

Let us, for the purposes of this example say that grace is a shiny new Logitech Harmony remote control. I caution here, lets not get hung up on specifics, I’m just using this as a working example to put this into a context easily understood. I understand fully that Grace is a gift way cooler than any fancy TV remote control, but I think it will help us to put this into the context of an actual gift. Think of this almost like a parable if you will.

So now, lets say you have a fancy home theater system, with a dozen or so components which all need to work in harmony in order for you to enjoy your movies. Lets say, further that your birthday is coming up, and fianlly lets say you don’t have any kind of Universal remote control, so to watch a movie you need no less than say, 3 remote controls at your disposal at any point in time.

Now lets say you have a very Charitable friend, who realizes it’s your birthday coming up. And lets say they realize your situation, and how much it fustrates you (I know it would, I’m living it ever since my puppy ate my logitech harmony remote ). So this friend buys you a Logitech Harmony 900 remote control. If you don’t know anything about these, here’s how they work breifly. You connect the remote to your computer, (name removed by moderator)ut all the devices you want to control with the remote. The remote downloads the profiles for every device from the internet, and then organizes this into so called “activities”. When it comes time to use the remote, literally you just push “Watch TV” or “Watch a Movie” button, and the remote will do exactly that, and will control all your home theater componets exactly as you want it to. How cool is that??

Now I think you would have to be foolish not to beleive that this remote control (grace) is totally sufficient to control your home theater exactly as you want, freeing you of all those remote controls (freeing you from sin, offering you salvation). I think it’s also fair to say that you dont deserve the Harmony remote. You didn’t really do anything to Merit it, it’s just being offered to you as a free gift.

You have two choices, cooperate with your charitable friend by thanking them (profusely) and gratiously accepting the gift of the Harmony remote. How do we do this? Well first we need faith one might say. You need faith to believe that this gift is truely for you. If you don’t realize this to start with, you’re in trouble, how can you accept a gift you don’t even know is for you?

Secondly you need charity, or you need to be gratious as I describe above. You thank them (I would thank them profusely) and politely accept the gift. After all, if you tell your friend “GIVE ME THAT REMOTE YOU DIRTY SO AND SO, NOW GET OUT OF HERE AND NEVER SHOW YOUR FACE TO ME AGAIN”, your charitable friend might find he isn’t so charitable any more. He’ll probably keep the remote and send you on your way.

So the same it is with God, first you need faith that Jesus died for your sins. If you don’t have this, you can’t move forward. Next you have to accept his free gift of grace gratiously, with charity not only to God but to your fellow man.

Any of that make sense to you?

 

[fhansen]

This thread is not about the Catholic Church being the One True Church, nor is it about the various Protestant denominations. The thread is about the sufficiency of Jesus Christ for sinners. Do we as Christians need more than the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ to save us from our sins, and secure our eternal adoption? Can we call God our Heavenly Father as our eternal Heavenly Father today, or can God revoke His adoption and sonship from you based on something that you do or don’t do? Look at earthly adoptions, and how earthly parents adopt orphans unconditionally. Do earthly parents adopt infants who they later abandon in life? If they do, then do we consider this abandonment as an ungodly, unloving act, or even a criminal act? Christ is sufficient for you in your sonship. We are in the kingdom of God eternally based on the perfection of our elder brother. God in Christ is sufficient for me and you, even though you don’t believe it. Please please mediate on my two Catholic links on my signature.

This thread is about truth as it relates to the gospel, and, for whatever reason, people have proved over and over that they’re led astray when left to their own devices.

Parents who love their children unconditionally eventually still have to let go of one who doesn’t wish to return-otherwise concepts like justice and hell have no meaning. And if it’s completely up to God who goes to heaven and who to hell -and not us to any degree- then He really would be an unjust parent and His love would be a joke. The very existence of hell testifies that man has the freedom to decide-to choose good or evil, life or death, sin or Love.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Let me try re-explaining this to Adam. I just cooked up this analogy yesterday and a different Protestant seemed to like it. Perhaps it will click with Adam finally. I’m going to modifiy it slightly though, I just thought of a way to clairify it a bit more:

Thanks for your Logitech Harmony Remote Control analogy. I know you mean well. However, I believe to understand the sufficiency of Christ for sinners, we should use Scripture revelation instead of our own analogies. I believe in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture too. I bet the Protestants who liked your Remote Control analogy were Arminian Prortestant Christians who think like you in many ways.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This thread is about truth as it relates to the gospel, and, for whatever reason, people have proved over and over that they’re led astray when left to their own devices.

Parents who love their children unconditionally eventually still have to let go of one who doesn’t wish to return-otherwise concepts like justice and hell have no meaning. And if it’s completely up to God who goes to heaven and who to hell -and not us to any degree- then He really would be an unjust parent and His love would be a joke. The very existence of hell testifies that man has the freedom to decide-to choose good or evil, life or death, sin or Love.

Are you saying people disown their children, and you consider that to be godly behavior? Please consider Hebrews 12 in regards to discipline from both God and earthly parents.

Hebrews 12

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith

12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

 

[crazzeto]

Thanks for your Logitech Harmony Remote Control analogy. I know you mean well. However, I believe to understand the sufficiency of Christ for sinners, we should use Scripture revelation instead of our own analogies. I believe in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture too. I bet the Protestants who liked your Remote Control analogy were Arminian Prortestant Christians who think like you in many ways.

My analogy is an explanation of scripture Adam, an explanation which is clearly visible if you read scripture fairly.

 

[fhansen]

Are you saying people disown their children, and you consider that to be godly behavior? Please consider Hebrews 12 in regards to discipline from both God and earthly parents.

Do Not Grow Weary

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

The writer of Hebrews is making the point that we can grow weary and lose the prize-it’s up to us. All people are Gods children, so since hell exists, then, yes, ultimately, after giving all, He lets some go-he won’t interfere with our freedom to choose our own fate.

 

[SteveGC]

Thanks for your Logitech Harmony Remote Control analogy. I know you mean well. However, I believe to understand the sufficiency of Christ for sinners, we should use Scripture revelation instead of our own analogies. I believe in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture too. I bet the Protestants who liked your Remote Control analogy were Arminian Prortestant Christians who think like you in many ways.

How does your faith in Christ play into your view that Christ is fully sufficient for your salvation? Does faith, to some degree, require free will? If so, then Christ is not fully sufficient for your ultimate salvation (eternal life in heaven)…although, in the broader context, He is fully sufficient for the salvation of the entire world. IOW, you have your part to do…so He alone is not sufficient to bring you to heaven against your disbelief. But He is fully sufficient if you believe and obey Him.

 

[crazzeto]

So, more on my little analogy:

1 Corinthians 13
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=13&l=2&f=s#x

2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Romans 11
drbo.org/chapter/52011.htm

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree, 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.

21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Mark 11
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=11&l=26&f=s#x

26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.

James 2

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

See how a little analogy can bring so much scripture together so nicely?

 

[2nd_Adam]

The writer of Hebrews is making the point that we can grow weary and lose the prize-it’s up to us. All people are Gods children, so since hell exists, then, yes, ultimately, after giving all, He lets some go-he won’t interfere with our freedom to choose our own fate.

When you consider the Protestant Reformation, I believe there was a battle for the concept of free will. I actually have not read Luther’s book of “Bondage of the Will”. Within Protestantism, regeneration, rebirths, born from above, born again are key doctrines. All people are God’s children in a physical sense, but another spiritual sense that those who are not in Christ are children of the devil. I think you guys should study the doctrine of adoption and sonship to see things differently. Why did Jesus teach that you have to be born again to even see the kingdom of God? We can only choose what we find desirable. We cannot choose Christ in our fallen nature because we cannot see Jesus as being desirable or we are unable to even see the kingdom of God without being born from above. Freedom to choose our own fate is a humanistic concept which is a hangover from Pelagius, one of the first humanists to attack the church.

Since we are all born into this world in enmity with God, it is natural for us to rebel against Him. In our sin nature, we want to be autonomous from Him, determining our own fate and destiny; therefore, we become our own gods. In your particular statement, you are implying God does not have a right to act as God. The only way you guys will be able to see these glorious things of God is to be disciplined, staying within the Scriptures for truth. Please start with Romans 9 on these issues.

 

[2nd_Adam]

How does your faith in Christ play into your view that Christ is fully sufficient for your salvation? Does faith, to some degree, require free will? If so, then Christ is not fully sufficient for your ultimate salvation (eternal life in heaven)…although, in the broader context, He is fully sufficient for the salvation of the entire world. IOW, you have your part to do…so He alone is not sufficient to bring you to heaven against your disbelief. But He is fully sufficient if you believe and obey Him.

Regeneration comes before faith. Our faith is from God. We are called to repent and to believe and trust God, to have faith in His promises. However, after you look through the Scirptures closer, then you will see what God calls for us to do, He also provides. Faith and repentance are required but also granted to God to His chosen ones. When a crowd heard the good news of God, which particular Gentiles believed?

Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

God commands all of us to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. For whom does He enable to repent and believe?

“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine

 

[fhansen]

When you consider the Protestant Reformation, I believe there was a battle for the concept of free will. I actually have not read Luther’s book of “Bondage of the Will”. Within Protestantism, regeneration, rebirths, born from above, born again are key doctrines. All people are God’s children in a physical sense, but another spiritual sense that those who are not in Christ are children of the devil. I think you guys should study the doctrine of adoption and sonship to see things differently. Why did Jesus teach that you have to be born again to even see the kingdom of God? We can only choose what we find desirable. We cannot choose Christ in our fallen nature because we cannot see Jesus as being desirable or we are unable to even see the kingdom of God without being born from above. Freedom to choose our own fate is a humanistic concept which is a hangover from Pelagius, one of the first humanists to attack the church.

Since we are all born into this world in enmity with God, it is natural for us to rebel against Him. In our sin nature, we want to be autonomous from Him, determining our own fate and destiny; therefore, we become our own gods. In your particular statement, you are implying God does not have a right to act as God. The only way you guys will be able to see these glorious things of God is to be disciplined, staying within the Scriptures for truth. Please start with Romans 9 on these issues.

Even before the Reformation, of course, this battle was being fought with Pelagianism and the Church has never been able to escape the fact that, while Gods’ will is sovereign, our wills have a part to play in our salvation-as Adam & Eves wills had a part to play in their expulsion from the garden/slash separation from God. Man’s will was never so corrupted that he’s not a player. While faith is a gift, it’s not one that cannot be rejected so even there a choice is involved.