The sufficiency of Christ

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by zerinus
The trouble is, In Catholicism God does not “save sinners” through the Calvinist gospel either!

hi z. ive tried to tell him that too. peace be unto you.

I’ve always posted that Cavlinism is not the gospel.

Hey brother Benidicit in tropical Hawaii,

How can you tell Zee the Mormon “peace be unto you” if Zee holds frimly and proclaims the Mormon gospel and the Mormon Jesus? Do you believe Zee can have peace with God with his Mormon gospel and Mormon Jesus? When Jesus told the Samaritan women at the well that we must worship the Father in Spirit and truth, did Jesus mean what He taught and proclaimed?

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” - Jesus

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Is it okay for Catholics and Protestants to leave our respective Christian communities for the Mormon gospel. Is historic Christianity apostate in which we need to be restored to God through Mormonism?

 

[zerinus]

Hey Izoid, you’re back in my doghouse due to such apparent personal attack. We should discuss doctrine instead of making judgment of character and of the heart of another.

Hey, 2nd, I have found a great solution for your predicament on CAF. You should ignore everyone and just debate with yourself! That would be the best solution for your problem here.

I might consider discussing things with you in about a month. In the mean time, here’s a good verse to mediate on while being in my doghouse.

LOL! I must admit, you are one of the most amusing posters I have met on CAF. At least you are not altogether boring. That must work in your favor I am sure.

 

[Pharos963]

2ND Adam as far as I can tell, you have been given the truth! If you can not believe it that is up to you!..read the gospels and you will see what we as Christians(Catholics) know the truth. Easily understood!!!, Jesus will protect His word…plain truth… no misunderstanding! This is My Body…This is My Blood…Easy, anyone who has ears let them hear! You do not believe, you do not understand…OK so we who do should we bow down and worship as you do? I think not!!! I will not!! i WILL NOT QUESTION WHAT i UNDERSTAND THROUGH FAITH…AND WILL NOT QUESTION WHAT i DO NOT SEE THROUGH MY OWN EYES!!! It is thru FAITH that WE have FOR OVER 2000 Years been part of the true believers!MY faith isn’t something to shy away from! It started 200th years ago on calvary and goes on today. I see it each and every day when I attend Mass and See(with my eyes and ears) Jesus offered again and always in the one and only sacrifice!!!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey, 2nd, I have found a great solution for your predicament on CAF. You should ignore everyone and just debate with yourself! That would be the best solution for your problem here.

LOL! I must admit, you are one of the most amusing posters I have met on CAF. At least you are not altogether boring. That must work in your favor I am sure.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This is what Zee is doing through the Internet, entering your homes to rescuse you from apostate Christianity through the Mormon Church restoration gospel. That’s is why I will continue to ignore him. The Internet can actually be more dangerous than door to door encounters with those who oppose historic orthodox Christianity. Beware brothers and sisters in Christ who love the Lord our God.

Originally Posted by guanophore (Catholic brother)
I agree with this, as I agree that the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus that was known and preached by the Apostles.

Walking in Truth and Love

I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. - 2 John

 

[2nd_Adam]

2ND Adam as far as I can tell, you have been given the truth! If you can not believe it that is up to you!..read the gospels and you will see what we as Christians(Catholics) know the truth. Easily understood!!!, Jesus will protect His word…plain truth… no misunderstanding! This is My Body…This is My Blood…Easy, anyone who has ears let them hear! You do not believe, you do not understand…OK so we who do should we bow down and worship as you do? I think not!!! I will not!! i WILL NOT QUESTION WHAT i UNDERSTAND THROUGH FAITH…AND WILL NOT QUESTION WHAT i DO NOT SEE THROUGH MY OWN EYES!!! It is thru FAITH that WE have FOR OVER 2000 Years been part of the true believers!MY faith isn’t something to shy away from! It started 200th years ago on calvary and goes on today. I see it each and every day when I attend Mass and See(with my eyes and ears) Jesus offered again and always in the one and only sacrifice!!!

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. In regards to the thread topic, do you believe Jesus Christ is sufficient for you in regards to being an eternal adopted child of God? Do you believe that Jesus Christ paid for all of your past, present, and future sins,(believe that the atoning work of Christ as sufficient for you)? We should try our best to stay within the tread topic to avoid chaos and mass confusion.

 

[guanophore]

The two yardsticks which measure the love of God for us in the New Testament are the doctrines of adoption and propitiation.

Can you point out these “yardsticks” in Scripture, or is this part of the Calvanistic extrabiblical revelation?

Christ is sufficient to secure our eternal adoption; in addition Christ is sufficient for full atonement because He bore the wrath of God for our past, present, and future sins (Christians only). The cross is a full atonement which He actually saves us from the penalty of our sins as believers.

I am curious how you dispense with the Scriptures that indicate He died for ALL, not just the elect.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can you point out these “yardsticks” in Scripture, or is this part of the Calvanistic extrabiblical revelation?

I am curious how you dispense with the Scriptures that indicate He died for ALL, not just the elect.

Okay, I will post the Scriptures on adoption and propitiation in regards to the love of God when I get back. Do you see being part of the bride of Christ a greater love of God than your sonship through adoption?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Okay, I will post the Scriptures on adoption and propitiation in regards to the love of God when I get back. Do you see being part of the bride of Christ a greater love of God than your sonship through adoption?

Me thinks you’ve put a false dichotomy here. Because we are adopted into the family of God. we are part of the Bride of Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Me thinks you’ve put a false dichotomy here. Because we are adopted into the family of God. we are part of the Bride of Christ.

I completely agree! We are both adopted children and the bride of Christ. Someone posted that being a bride of Christ is a greater love of God then our adoption. The real issue is about the sufficiency of Christ for our eternal adoption and our eternal status of being part of the bride of Christ.

 

[izoid]

If anybody wants to truly know what Adam is talking about, read j I Packer’s Knowing God, page 214. The idea of adoption through propitiation is presented there.

Basically, Protestants believe that God renders a judicial decree announcing us to be forgiven due to Christ’s death on the cross. Christ’s death was a propitiation, appeasement, of God’s wrath towards us. Because of this we are declared sons instead of being declared guilty. This sonship is a positional sonship, or adoption. In a nut shell we are declared righteous through Christ’s death on the cross, propitiation. Because of this declaration we are positionally Gods sons, adoption.

All of it is declared righteousness and adoption, not actually being righteous or truly being adopted. It is a “declared” “positional” righteousness and sonship.

Adam, did I do OK on this or would you like to clarify?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I completely agree! We are both adopted children and the bride of Christ. Someone posted that being a bride of Christ is a greater love of God then our adoption. The real issue is about the sufficiency of Christ for our eternal adoption and our eternal status of being part of the bride of Christ.

Yes, this poster was speaking about the Eucharist…and herein lies the crux of the issue of forensic justification/imputed righteousness vs. infused grace and the Sacraments.

We are not merely declared into the son ship but truly are adopted, by His actual grace (and our cooperation with these unmerited graces) we are truly righteous; we are not “dunghill in snow” but transformed. The old man has not been declared gone but actually is gone.

 

[fhansen]

So is there something called non-forensic justification as well? And what is the difference between the two? I thought “justification” itself was a legalistic term, or has legal connotations. So what is the difference between forensic justification and non-forensic justification?

The justification of man is simply for him to become just. A strictly forensic declaration renders man no different in terms of actual righteousness-he only becomes so imputedly. Catholics believe man must become just in reality, i.e. not merely forensically.

 

[PRmerger]

leaving Catholics with a tendency to have fear and uncertainty of their eternal destination. Christ is sufficient for those who understand the truth of adoption through propitiation.

Adam, you have often cited your exposure to many Catholic writings. Are you familiar with Pope B16’s encylical Spe Salvi?

It would seem not, otherwise you would not have made such a comment about Catholics having fear and uncertainty about their eternal destination. The entire encyclical is a paean to hope. Catholic hope.

SPE SALVI facti sumus: In Hope We Were Saved.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, I will post the Scriptures on adoption and propitiation in regards to the love of God when I get back. Do you see being part of the bride of Christ a greater love of God than your sonship through adoption?

I don’t set up a dichotomy between the two. As with most things Catholic, it’s not either/or, it’s both/and.

I will add, however, that without the Eucharist a Christian has no means of achieving the sublime One Flesh Union with God.

 

[zerinus]

I am curious how you dispense with the Scriptures that indicate He died for ALL, not just the elect.

He doesn’t. He just . . .

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am curious how you dispense with the Scriptures that indicate He died for ALL, not just the elect.

It depends which Scriptures you are referring to. If you are speaking about Romans 5, then try to reconcile the all in 1 Cor 15, which clarifies the all in Romans 5 to be “all in Christ” in 1 Cor 15. Of course Christ died for “all in Christ”.

 

[2nd_Adam]

If anybody wants to truly know what Adam is talking about, read j I Packer’s Knowing God, page 214. The idea of adoption through propitiation is presented there.

Basically, Protestants believe that God renders a judicial decree announcing us to be forgiven due to Christ’s death on the cross. Christ’s death was a propitiation, appeasement, of God’s wrath towards us. Because of this we are declared sons instead of being declared guilty. This sonship is a positional sonship, or adoption. In a nut shell we are declared righteous through Christ’s death on the cross, propitiation. Because of this declaration we are positionally Gods sons, adoption.

All of it is declared righteousness and adoption, not actually being righteous or truly being adopted. It is a “declared” “positional” righteousness and sonship.

Adam, did I do OK on this or would you like to clarify?

Yes, please read the book “Knowing God” pages 180 through 229 to see what JI Packer speaks about adoption through propitation! Please note JI Packer signed ECT 1 and ECT II and got hammered by other Evangecials for doing it.

It really doesn’t matter if Protestants believe these truths and Catholics don’t. What really matters is what God reveals about the doctrines of adoption through propitation. I will post the Scripture proofs as soon as I am able. Sundays are family days, so I will continue to juggle my time on Catholic Answers. Adoption through Propitation… is it true? Full atonement, who can believe this wonder great news of God? Did Christ actually pay for all the sins for His elect, or did he only die on the cross to make salvation possible for all men? Did Christ rescue sinners from their sins, or did Christ only make a way for all to be saved but His life and death is not enough to be saved?

Sufficiency of Christ

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve been on Catholic Answers for several months. We all know that there are multiple interpretations and understanding on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition including the Catholic Catechism.

Ok. You posted this:

Originally posted by 2nd Adam: So, why is Guan’s view and interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition more correct than the next Catholic with an opposing interpretation of the Catholic Catechism?

(bold mine)

and I asked for an example of a Catholic who proffered an opposing interpretation of the Catechism. What poster posed an opposing interpretation of the Catechism?

Guan’s view does not always represent a correct orthodox Catholic understanding,

Please give us an example of an incorrect understanding that guanophore has expressed, and the correct teaching (with link to Catholic document, please!).

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ok. You posted this: (bold mine)

and I asked for an example of a Catholic who proffered an opposing interpretation of the Catechism. What poster posed an opposing interpretation of the Catechism?

Please give us an example of an incorrect understanding that guanophore has expressed, and the correct teaching (with link to Catholic document, please!).

I’m going to try my best to stay on the thread topic only.

 

[zerinus]

It depends which Scriptures you are referring to. If you are speaking about Romans 5, then try to reconcile the all in 1 Cor 15, which clarifies the all in Romans 5 to be “all in Christ” in 1 Cor 15. Of course Christ died for “all in Christ”.

The scriptures he was referring to were given in post #190 of this thread!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)