The sufficiency of Christ

[izoid]

That’s not true at all. Because I love him, I speak the truth in love to him. Because I want him to know God through the living Jesus Christ, I speak the truth in love, giiving him no false assurance in the Mormon hope. If you think I am mean to him, just reference the postings that you are making that claim and report it to a moderator. Otherwise, please don’t slander me without supporting what you post. I have found other Catholics who have discerned Mormonism as I have, but post way stronger than I do with Zee.

I would say that posting a picture such as you did is all the proof we need.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

That’s not true at all. Because I love him, I speak the truth in love to him. Because I want him to know God through the living Jesus Christ, I speak the truth in love, giiving him no false assurance in the Mormon hope. If you think I am mean to him, just reference the postings that you are making that claim and report it to a moderator. Otherwise, please don’t slander me without supporting what you post. I have found other Catholics who have discerned Mormonism as I have, but post way stronger than I do with Zee.

If that’s what you truly believe, then respond to Zee’s posts based on their merit, not his religion.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You’ve now proven izoid’s point. Thank you.

I’m sure by now, after Zee has posted and you’ve posted about the gospel, I am very sure Zee is aware. Yes, we are to speak the truth but with charity. (see opening page of CAF forums, the text below where you sign in).

Did you read all of the different Catholic postings to Zee? I have found Randy Carson to be 1000% stronger with Zee than myself which is okay with me. Now let’s please get back to the thread topic, Sometimes I think you guys are using Zee as a smoke screen to avoid the suffiiciency of Christ, and adopition through propitiation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Love of God through Propitiation!

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Rom 5

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. - 1 John 4:8-10

The Love of God through Adoption

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 1 John 3

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. - Rom 8

I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. - Gal 3

Let’s rejoice in our sonship together, God is our eternal Heveanly Father! :harp::grouphug:

Amen, Adam! We are God’s adopted children through our baptism!

We are also the Bride of Christ, but, unfortunately, some of these “brides” are unable to enjoy the One Flesh Union with Him.

Back to the thread topic. Are you saying that you have assurance that you are an enternal adopted child of God, based on the sufficiency of Christ alone for you? Do you see God as your forever eternal Heavenly Father based on the doctrine of propitation?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Did you read all of the different Catholic postings to Zee? I have found Randy Carson to be 1000% stronger with Zee than myself which is okay with me. Now let’s please get back to the thread topic, Sometimes I think you guys are using Zee as a smoke screen to avoid the suffiiciency of Christ, and adopition through propitiation.

Two wrongs don’t made a right. And by that admission, you know that Catholics don’t believe that Mormons don’t need to be witnessed it as you’ve implied otherwise. The only one using the smoke screen here is you by not answering Zee’s posts based on their merit, focusing only upon his religion.

Question: why do you think we would need a smoke screen?

 

[izoid]

I posted this over on the Calvinism thread by mistake.

Regarding your views on the sufficiency of Christ, do you feel that Christ’s death paid everything and that nothing else is needed for justification?

If so, what is true faith that activates salvation?

What happens when one walks with God for a period of time and then rejects God, is Christ’s death sufficient to keep that person saved?

How do you interpret James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I posted this over on the Calvinism thread by mistake.

Regarding your views on the sufficiency of Christ, do you feel that Christ’s death paid everything and that nothing else is needed for justification?

If so, what is true faith that activates salvation?

What happens when one walks with God for a period of time and then rejects God, is Christ’s death sufficient to keep that person saved?

How do you interpret James 2:24 **You see that a person is justified by what he does **and not by faith alone.

Since that might be misinterpreted as “catholics believe they are saved by their works”, do you mind clarifying that?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Two wrongs don’t made a right. And by that admission, you know that Catholics don’t believe that Mormons don’t need to be witnessed it as you’ve implied otherwise. The only one using the smoke screen here is you by not answering Zee’s posts based on their merit, focusing only upon his religion.

Question: why do you think we would need a smoke screen?

That’s an untrue statement according to the two Mormon books on Catholic Answers. Please buy the two Mormon books on Catholic Answers to discern that Mormons need the historic Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

That’s an untrue statement according to the two Mormon books on Catholic Answers. Please buy the two Mormon books on Catholic Answers to discern that Mormons need the historic Jesus Christ and the biblical gospel.

You’ve proven my point. Thank you.

I said:

you know that Catholics don’t believe that Mormons don’t need to be witnessed it as you’ve implied otherwise.

Yes, Mormons need to be witnessed to. I said, you’ve implied otherwise and now explicitly in this post. The issue here has always been charity in a witness, not if a witness is not needed. However, I’m not going dismiss Zee’s comments because he is a Mormon.

Question: why do you think that Catholics need a smokescreen in this thread?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I posted this over on the Calvinism thread by mistake.

Regarding your views on the sufficiency of Christ, do you feel that Christ’s death paid everything and that nothing else is needed for justification?

If so, what is true faith that activates salvation?

What happens when one walks with God for a period of time and then rejects God, is Christ’s death sufficient to keep that person saved?

How do you interpret James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Very good, so we can now discuss the historic divide between Catholic theology and Protestant theology. Before we start, please re-read Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone according to half of the New Testament. I’m sure your understanding of James chapter 2 cannot nullify half of the New Testament books. Let’s stay close to the thread topic. Do you see yourself as an eternal adopted child of God? Do you see God as your eternal Heavenly Father? What is your understanding of the doctrine of propitiation? Please take your time with your answers. I’l check on them in the morming. Christ is sufficient for me and you, regardless what we believe. We can have assurance in what God has done for us in Christ, because our faith is in Him and not in ourselves.

Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.
Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology (pg. 723)

Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction. Turning away our view from our own works, it bids us look only to the mercy of God and the perfection of Christ. The order of justification which it sets before us is this: first, God of his mere gratuitous goodness is pleased to embrace the sinner, in whom he sees nothing that can move him to mercy but wretchedness, because he sees him altogether naked and destitute of good works. He, therefore, seeks the cause of kindness in himself, that thus he may affect the sinner by a sense of his goodness, and induce him, in distrust of his own works, to cast himself entirely upon his mercy for salvation. This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ.
John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16)

The phrase “in him” I have preferred to retain, rather than render it “by him” because it has in my opinion more expressiveness and force. For we are enriched in Christ, inasmuch as we are members of his body, and are engrafted into him: nay more, being made one with him, he makes us share with him in everything that he has received from the Father.John Calvin Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:5

http://menscrhp.com/images/cross_sunset.jpg

Amazing sufficient Grace was merited for us by the life and death of Jesus Christ.

 

[izoid]

Since that might be misinterpreted as “catholics believe they are saved by their works”, do you mind clarifying that?

We are saved by grace, not works. Faith is by grace as are works. We can do nothing pleasing to God apart from His grace.

This says it much better than I ever could:

Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapters 8 and 10

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely [Romans 3:24; 5:1], these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God [Heb 11:6] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace [Rom 11:6].

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God [Eph 2:19], advancing from virtue to virtue [Psalm 83:8], they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day [2 Cor 4:16], that is, mortifying the members [Col 3:5] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification [Rom 6:13,19], they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still; [Rev 22:11] and, “Be not afraid to be justified even to death” [Sirach 18:22]; and again, “Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?” [James 2:24] This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: “Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”

 

[zerinus]

Let’s try to stay within the thread topic and not make it about Mormonism.

You have talked more about Mormons and Mormonism on this thread than anybody else. I went back and checked. That is true. I want to talk about you and your thread topic, and you keep taking about Mormonism instead.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

2ndAdam, do you believe that Catholics need to know the historical Jesus as well? Are we a mission field as well?

Numerous Catholics here have answered your questions about the sufficiency. In fairness, why not answer ours, eh?

 

[izoid]

Very good, so we can now discuss the historic divide between Catholic theology and Protestant theology. Before we start, please re-read Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone according to half of the New Testament. I’m sure your understanding of James chapter 2 cannot nullify half of the New Testament books. Let’s stay close to the thread topic. Do you see yourself as an eternal adopted child of God? Do you see God as your eternal Heavenly Father? What is your understanding of the doctrine of propitiation? Please take your time with your answers. I’l check on them in the morming. Christ is sufficient for me and you, regardless what we believe. We can have assurance in what God has done for us in Christ, because our faith is in Him and not in ourselves.

Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.
Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology (pg. 723)

Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction. Turning away our view from our own works, it bids us look only to the mercy of God and the perfection of Christ. The order of justification which it sets before us is this: first, God of his mere gratuitous goodness is pleased to embrace the sinner, in whom he sees nothing that can move him to mercy but wretchedness, because he sees him altogether naked and destitute of good works. He, therefore, seeks the cause of kindness in himself, that thus he may affect the sinner by a sense of his goodness, and induce him, in distrust of his own works, to cast himself entirely upon his mercy for salvation. This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ.
John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16)

The phrase “in him” I have preferred to retain, rather than render it “by him” because it has in my opinion more expressiveness and force. For we are enriched in Christ, inasmuch as we are members of his body, and are engrafted into him: nay more, being made one with him, he makes us share with him in everything that he has received from the Father.John Calvin Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:5

Once again you fail to answer my questions to you. STOP avoiding our questions Adam, dialog goes both ways.

I am glad you like Grudem. He teaches at Phoenix Seminary which was established by Daryl DelHousee, the pastor at Scottsdale Bible Church when I was there. I know Wayne and his theology well, I actually just sold his Systematic Theology to a used bookstore last week.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You have talked more about Mormons and Mormonism on this thread than anybody else. I went back and checked. That is true.

Zee, you will be dismissed based on your religion and then you will must provide proof. If he makes any spurious claims about you and you want to know his sources, you are off topic. Or at least, that’s how it’s been for us Catholics.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2ndAdam, do you believe that Catholics need to know the historical Jesus as well? Are we a mission field as well?

Numerous Catholics here have answered your questions about the sufficiency. In fairness, why not answer ours, eh?

Of course not. I have posted throughout my time on Catholic Answers that I receive Catholic Christians as my siblings in Christ. I believe that I have answered all the related thread topic questions on this thread. Did you read all of the posts since it moves quite fast? If you think I missed something, please re-post it and I will answer all questions within the thread topic. Please don’t confuse the sufficiency of Scripture with the sufficiency of Christ. Scripture points to our sufficiency of Christ.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Of course not. I have posted throughout my time on Catholic Answers that I receive Catholic Christians as my siblings in Christ.

Great! Then why not answer izoid’s questions, huh? True discussion can be had if both contribute…that includes you, Adam.

As for the sufficiency of Scripture claim, it is not exactly this topic but it is relevant, especially since you are basing all your theology upon this belief.

 

[izoid]

Once again Adam, I ask you:

Regarding your views on the sufficiency of Christ, do you feel that Christ’s death paid everything and that nothing else is needed for justification?

If so, what is true faith that activates salvation?

What happens when one walks with God for a period of time and then rejects God, is Christ’s death sufficient to keep that person saved?

How do you interpret James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Please tell me what YOU think, not what Grudem or Calvin think.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Once again Adam, I ask you:

Regarding your views on the sufficiency of Christ, do you feel that Christ’s death paid everything and that nothing else is needed for justification?

If so, what is true faith that activates salvation?

What happens when one walks with God for a period of time and then rejects God, is Christ’s death sufficient to keep that person saved?

How do you interpret James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Please tell me what YOU think, not what Grudem or Calvin think.

Please answer post 667 first and I will continue with you in the morning.

From post 667

Very good, so we can now discuss the historic divide between Catholic theology and Protestant theology. Before we start, please re-read Pope Benedict’s teaching on justification by faith alone according to half of the New Testament. I’m sure your understanding of James chapter 2 cannot nullify half of the New Testament books. Let’s stay close to the thread topic. Do you see yourself as an eternal adopted child of God? Do you see God as your eternal Heavenly Father? What is your understanding of the doctrine of propitiation? Please take your time with your answers. I’l check on them in the morming. Christ is sufficient for me and you, regardless what we believe. We can have assurance in what God has done for us in Christ, because our faith is in Him and not in ourselves.

 

[zerinus]

Come on Adam, you know how. Your disdain for him and all that he believes is clear. You treat him as a second class citizen and are extremely mean spirited when talking to him or about him.

The reason why he has been doing that is because I have challenged many of his false theologies (in support of Catholicism) which he has not been able to answer. That is the only defensive option that is left to him. He has no more “love” for me, or you, or anybody else.