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2nd_Adam
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We know God’s work of positional justification will always follow of making His justified and redeemed children into the image of His Son… to the praise of His glorious transforming grace.
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2nd_Adam
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To be honest, it’s been a long time since I read John MacArthur and James White. Protestant Christians and Reformed Christians vary on their views about the Catholic Faith. As you know, John MacArthur can be tough on Protestants and Catholics alike. Do you remember that he teaches that the great mission field is the visible church? James White as I can remember, appears more even keel. I thought he was similar to RC Sproul in the sense that he can debate with Catholic apologists publically in a very Christ-like manner. I know James White debates people like Dave Hunt in regards to Calvinism and free will. I believe Dave Hunt wrote the book “Woman rides the Beast” or something like that. I am pretty distant from my Arminian brothers like Dave Hunt. I have been mostly reading the old guys, and much of John Piper too.
I have always posted that I used to be against ECT 1 and ECT II, but have changed my personal views as seeing Catholics as siblings in Christ. I do really believe in remnant theology, that God saves sinners through Christ,regardless of some of our doctrinal errors. For instance, I don’t think the typical modern day Evangelical understands justification through imputation in a doctrinal sense, but can still trust in Christ alone to be saved. The Christian life is a process and a journey which can lead through various Christian communities as you have experienced. In your case, do you believe that you actually knew God through Christ as a Protestant? Or do you believe you were converted to God in Christ when you became Catholic?
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izoid
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I absolutely knew Christ as a Protestant. It has always been my desire to love Him fully.
I do feel that as a Catholic I now have the fulness of Christ which was missing in the Protestant church. I know Him much better now and my goals in life have been dramatically altered because of that knowledge.
You see, I think the sect of Protestantism that I came out of had the goal of knowing about God while the goal in Catholicism is to know God. This distinction has transformed, or is transforming, who I am as a representative of Christ.
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2nd_Adam
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I will continue to post that Zee is welcome to participate on this thread with others. I simply choose to ignore Zee because I believe Mormonism is outside of the family of God in Christ. I do not judge Zee personally, but I do judge his Mormon gospel and His Mormon Jesus to be outside historic orthodox Christianity which can be defined within the ancient historic creeds. I will no longer put historic Christians on my ignore list. Izoid is no longer on my ignore list because he is a brother in Christ in whom we share the same Heavenly Father.My Mormonism is his excuse. He puts on “ignore” anyone whom he cannot answer. He did the same thing to izoid, who is not a Mormon. He would have done the same to guanophore, except that he would look unbelievably stupid if he did! So he tries to shake him off in other ways, such as by being mean, and rude, and insulting. He won’t get rid of me that way though!
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2nd_Adam
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I have been growing in a direction brought out by John Piper who found this perspective through the writings of Jonathan Edwards, Augustine and the Apostle Paul. I believe our assurance of being in Christ and being an adopted child of God is through our growing love and affection for God. The more we love God, the more we love others and with gladness and Joy, work the works God prepared for us to walk in. The more we love Christ, the more we obey His commands. Study on the subject of Christian hedonism and let me know what you think. The Apostle Paul was quite the Christian hedonist! I really need to get work done in the next several days, but prefer to discuss our great God together on Catholic Answers all day long. Our time on Catholic Answers should be a time of worship as we mediate on the person and work of Jesus Christ, causing us to grow in our love and affection for our great Triune God!
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2nd_Adam
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Let’s rejoice together in our adoption and sonship that we share! I agree that communion; Lord’s supper; Eucharist… is a great means of grace given by God to all His adopted children whom He loves, because we are united to Christ. I believe Protestants and Catholics both understand that they are adopted children of God and the bride of Christ. The real difference IMO is our assurance or lack of assurance as being an eternal adopted child and enternal member of the bride of Christ. Therefore, we have the thread topic of sufficiency of Jesus Christ as to our adoption through propitation.
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Dancelittleewok
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You believe the Sacraments are means of grace?
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crazzeto
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I find it interesting that, rather than specifically responding to any points and difficult scripture. Instead you just say “hey, brotherly love!”. Com’on, you started this thread in order to proport your theological idea’s. Why not respond?
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2nd_Adam
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Reformed Christians and other Protestants see the two sacraments as means of grace. I would say that Baptist will differ in this regards, unfortunately.You believe the Sacraments are means of grace?
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2nd_Adam
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I really need to make this my last post for the day. I’m not sure if I follow your post. In what area do you say that we disagree that I have not addressed? Please post your questions and will try to get to it tomorrow morning.
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izoid
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Not to derail the thread but I do not believe that the Protestant church is the Bride of Christ. I believe that Christ only had one bride and that bride is the Catholic Church.
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tweetymom
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PRmerger
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Amen! :extrahappy:
That is an elementary understanding of the Eucharist. While it is true, and I do not deny you your understanding, to understand the SUBLIME aspects of it, one must understand it as the One Flesh Union. One cannot have physical intimacy with a symbol.
Yet, as you have correctly pointed out, it seems that there are those who think they’re saved yet really are only “professors”, so you do not truly have assurance of being an “eternal member of the bride of Christ”, do you, Adam?
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izoid
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Does my comment confuse you? Do you have a question to ask?
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2nd_Adam
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Well since you derailed our thread brother, I guess I have to break from work and respond. You know the Protestant churches tend to be more biblical than the Catholic Church. The bride of Christ is actually way more intimate and personal than you make it to be. The bride of Christ is not exclusively the Catholic Church, nor the Orthodox churches, nor the Protestant churches, nor the Anglican Church. The bride of Christ is made up of individual sinners who have been redeemed and eternally adopted into the family of God who call on God as their Heavenly Father. The individuals who makeup the bride of Christ are called the elect, God’s chosen ones, saints, vessels of mercy, children of God, children of the light, those in Christ. So, the true bride of Christ is truly universal consisting of individuals from all tongue, tribe, and nations, and of course the remnant chosen by grace from various Christian communities. The true bride of Christ is truly universal (catholic).
Here’s the slam dunk! :ballspin:
When did you become part of the bride of Christ, when you were united to Christ by faith as a Protestant, or when you became an official member of the Catholic Church?
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2nd_Adam
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You will find through your personal study that Reformed Churches, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, and other Protestant churches see communion to be way more than just a symbol. If these churches receive communion as a means of grace, how can they view it simply as a symbol?Amen! :extrahappy:
That is an elementary understanding of the Eucharist. While it is true, and I do not deny you your understanding, to understand the SUBLIME aspects of it, one must understand it as the One Flesh Union. One cannot have physical intimacy with a symbol.
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PRmerger
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Yes, of course. But, unfortunately, as they have no apostolic succession nor a valid priesthood, they are indeed only having intimacy with a wafer. Not very intimate, I imagine!
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izoid
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Just because I knew Christ did not mean I was a part of the Bride did it? If it did I would appreciate scripture to back the statement up.Well since you derailed our thread brother, I guess I have to break from work and respond. You know the Protestant churches tend to be more biblical than the Catholic Church. The bride of Christ is actually way more intimate and personal than you make it to be. The bride of Christ is not exclusively the Catholic Church, nor the Orthodox churches, nor the Protestant churches, nor the Anglican Church. The bride of Christ is made up of individual sinners who have been redeemed and eternally adopted into the family of God who call on God as their Heavenly Father. The individuals who makeup the bride of Christ are called the elect, God’s chosen ones, saints, vessels of mercy, children of God, children of the light, those in Christ. So, the true bride of Christ is truly universal consisting of individuals from all tongue, tribe, and nations, and of course the remnant chosen by grace from various Christian communities. The true bride of Christ is truly universal (catholic).
Here’s the slam dunk! :ballspin:
When did you become part of the bride of Christ, when you were united to Christ by faith as a Protestant, or when you became an official member of the Catholic Church?
I assume that your are speaking of the invisible church in your first paragraph. Again, scripture?
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
I do not see ONE Protestant denomination that can claim to be without stain. If they do, there will be another PROTESTANT denomination to challenge that claim.
I would encourage you to read this article, it does an excellent job of explaining what the church is: catholic.com/library/pillar.asp
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PRmerger
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What do you mean by “more biblical”? Do you mean they have more bible verses read in their services? If that’s what you mean, then you have not been to a Catholic liturgy. Adam.
Well, whenever izoid became part of the bride of Christ, he was not able to consummate his relationship with Christ until he received the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (that is, at the Easter Liturgy most likely!)
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izoid
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I know of no protestant churches that view the Eucharist as the actual body and soul of Christ. Catholicism is the only faith that adheres to transubstantiation.
Conservative protestantism views communion as symbolic and does not believe in the actual presence. If I am wrong, please provide me with the appropriate article of faith and I will gladly recant.
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