The sufficiency of Christ

[tweetymom]

Indeed. I have never seen a post, tweety, in which you affirm a Catholic who voices opinions in union with the Magisterium.

You do seem to save your for anyone who says, in essence, “Jesus, I disagree with you on _________”

In your defense, I think you want to welcome non-Catholics here—a worthy and charitable venture.

However, you take quite personally any admonitions given to you about “truth in advertising”. We’re just asking you to do the honorable thing.

Thank you and I do the honorable thing by telling the truth as revealed to me by Jesus as do you I suppose. I just see things in a different light. Peace be with you. I never give a thumbs up to people that disagree with Jesus only what you suppose.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay Rocket Man, please take over!

That’s peculiar that you’re giving over your apologia to another Protestant–are you even sure that you agree on a dozen Scripture verses? Do you know what he believes on baptism, OSAS, heaven, hell, homosexuality, marriage, divorce, the Eucharist, women pastors, the Rapture, the trinity, predestination, Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc etc etc?

 

[fhansen]

Thank you for sharing that! I love Augustine! That is very similar to what Reformed Christians proclaim and believe. Augustine played a big part in the theology of the Protestant Reformers like Calvin and Luther. Adoption is both present and a future event, just like salvation. We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. There is a past, present, and future aspect of our salvation. Sometimes, I see Catholic theology missing the truth of the past tense of have been saved; therefore, it’s easy for Protestants to think that Christ does not appear to be sufficient for Catholics in that regards.

Yes, and Catholics will see Protestants as missing the truth of the future, not 100% certain, aspect of salvation that Augustine alludes to here.

Romans 8 is the truth of salvation. But since Catholic Theology has a different view on the doctrine of election, it has troubles with the following verses (IMO).

I’ll submit that, if a Protestant allows that any person ever may possibly have been wrong about their own election, then they’re admitting the possibility that they’re own can’t be 100% certain either.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey Rocket,

Please be aware that 2ndAdam is a Calvinist missionary here on CA.

What the heck is a Calvinist missionary? I thought Calvinsts believed in predestination, so why would they want to evangelize if God already predestined who would be saved? Sometimes Izoid, you are too difficult to understand. I found this passage of Scirpture quite interesting.

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. - Paul the least of all Apostles

 

[2nd_Adam]

No doubt about that brother.

I am serious when I encourage you to read the history though. You have nothing to loose. It should not be threatening or concerning for you at all. Did you know that books from the Apocrypha were considered authoritative as early as 250 AD? My protestant history book taught me that.

I tell you the truth, I was not looking for the Catholic church when I began reading church history. I really wanted to know which protestant denomination was closest to the 1st century church. My family and I were changing churches and I truly wanted to be worshipping as the 1st century Christians did.

How first century Christians worshipped and believed about the Christian Faith is recorded in all 27 books of the New Testament. It is the best source to determine what the early church believed. Don’t you agree?

 

[2nd_Adam]

That’s peculiar that you’re giving over your apologia to another Protestant–are you even sure that you agree on a dozen Scripture verses? Do you know what he believes on baptism, OSAS, heaven, hell, homosexuality, marriage, divorce, the Eucharist, women pastors, the Rapture, the trinity, predestination, Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc etc etc?

All Protestants only know in part unlike the Catholic Church. So, when Rocket Man posts something in which I disagree, then all I can say is the we all know in part just like the Apsotle Paul. Rocket Man rocks… just like Tweetymom. I get excited over Christians who have a great passion for Jesus Christ!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, and Catholics will see Protestants as missing the truth of the future, not 100% certain, aspect of salvation that Augustine alludes to here.

I’ll submit that, if a Protestant allows that any person ever may possibly have been wrong about their own election, then they’re admitting the possibility that they’re own can’t be 100% certain either.

That’s words of wisdom. We should simply listen to the Apostle Peter and make our calling and election sure.

Make Your Calling and Election Sure

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s words of wisdom. We should simply listen to the Apostle Peter and make our calling and election sure.

What? There is something we should do to make our “election sure”? Is this something we do that influences God’s determination?

 

[2nd_Adam]

What? There is something we should do to make our “election sure”? Is this something we do that influences God’s determination?

That is a misunderstanding Catholics have about historic Protestant theology.

We believe justfication is an act of God alone - monergism

We believe sanctification is a cooperation between God and man - synergism.

monergism.com/what_is_monergism.php

Straining Toward the Goal

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. - Paul

 

[PRmerger]

All Protestants only know in part unlike the Catholic Church. So, when Rocket Man posts something in which I disagree, then all I can say is the we all know in part just like the Apsotle Paul.

So when Rocket Man posts something, we’ll have to wait until you confirm or disavow his particular interpretation?

I get excited over Christians who have a great passion for Jesus Christ!

Indeed! Me too!

 

[fhansen]

How first century Christians worshipped and believed about the Christian Faith is recorded in all 27 books of the New Testament. It is the best source to determine what the early church believed. Don’t you agree?

The NT is sketchy on this matter-and of course the Church, being a living Church facing a changing environment continuously throughout its history and being led continuously by the HS began to evolve immediately in her ways of doing things while maintaining the gospel itself-the Deposit of Faith-intact. So while Protestants generally like to believe they’re doing things as the early Church did, the best way to get a grasp on this is to research history as izoid says.

Even archeological findings are revealing but the most important resources are writings of the ECFs. Try William Jurgen’s 3 vol. set, The Faith of the Early Fathers. Also conciliar decrees, encyclicals, Augustine, etc. One informative book is an early Church History, Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History. It seems rather funny to me now but I used to be suspicious of any document that would be supposed to come from strictly Catholic sources-sort of like JWs attitude towards “apostate literature”-you may not have that problem and should recognize that Catholic history is Protestant history.

 

[PRmerger]

Be more specific sister. I don’t believe the Magisterium acknowledges baptisms done within Mormonism. Who else does the Magisterium accept beyond Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox and other Christians who adhere to the historic creeds of orthodoxy?

“Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.
When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” Source here.

**Outside the Church there is no salvation. **

 

[PRmerger]

What the heck is a Calvinist missionary? I thought Calvinsts believed in predestination, so why would they want to evangelize if God already predestined who would be saved?

It’s a play on words, Adam. Mormon missionary/Calvinist missionary.

Like guanophore said about you: He does, however, want to locate who those saved persons are, so that he can help them to grow in their love and affection for God.

Similar paradigm as missionary work, yes?

 

[Rocket_Man]

What? There is something we should do to make our “election sure”? Is this something we do that influences God’s determination?

Notice verse 5, "For this very reason, make every effort …

What reason Peter?

“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.”

Oh, so what shall we do?

make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

OK, So if I want to enjoy the assurance of my salvation in all of its richness, here is the means…by pursuing these qualities! If I do them and I find them increasing in my life, they render me neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So if I do not increase these things then what?

For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

OK, so a person who is not practicing these things is so blind that he doesn’t even enjoy the first blessing in which he was purified from his old sinful life. .

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

OK, so if I want to enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election, I should practice these things!

 

[izoid]

What the heck is a Calvinist missionary? I thought Calvinsts believed in predestination, so why would they want to evangelize if God already predestined who would be saved? Sometimes Izoid, you are too difficult to understand. I found this passage of Scirpture quite interesting.

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. - Paul the least of all Apostles

Oh…I am not hard to understand, actual I am very direct and to the point. I stated earlier, several hundred posts ago, that Calvinists witness out of obedience. They don’t think their efforts will change who is elect and who is not but they cannot deny that they are commanded to evangelize. It really is quite sad; Evangelize because you are commanded but your efforts really have no effect other than to “round up the elect”.

 

[PRmerger]

OK, so if I want to enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election, I should practice these things!

Interesting explanation, Rocket. But please connect the dots for me. I don’t understand the making one’s “election sure”. How do we do anything to make our election SURE? (I get the part about enjoying the benefits of being assured of your salvation–it’s the part about saying we have to DO something to makre our election SURE that seems quite peculiar to me about your theology.)

 

[izoid]

What the heck is a Calvinist missionary? I thought Calvinsts believed in predestination, so why would they want to evangelize if God already predestined who would be saved? Sometimes Izoid, you are too difficult to understand. I found this passage of Scirpture quite interesting.

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. - Paul the least of all Apostles

I wonder what Paul meant when he said, “if we endure, we will also reign with him;”. Could we believe that if we don’t endure we will not reign with Him? Just curious.

 

[izoid]

How first century Christians worshipped and believed about the Christian Faith is recorded in all 27 books of the New Testament. It is the best source to determine what the early church believed. Don’t you agree?

It quite obviously is not. It gives us part of a picture but we can get the full picture by observing how those closest to those churches believed and acted.

Yoou and I disagree about what the church is and how they worshipped. We both look at and read and study the NT but come to different conclusions. It only makes sense that we be willing to set aside our preconceptions and see how the people that were taught by the disciples themselves understood and worshipped. If you do not have anything to be concerned about why would you not be willing to do this?

I am not asking you to read a Catholic history book. Read any church history book you choose. Filter the commentary and simply look at what actually was. Are you fearful that you may be wrong?

 

[2nd_Adam]

The NT is sketchy on this matter-and of course the Church, being a living Church facing a changing environment continuously throughout its history and being led continuously by the HS began to evolve immediately in her ways of doing things while maintaining the gospel itself-the Deposit of Faith-intact. So while Protestants generally like to believe they’re doing things as the early Church did, the best way to get a grasp on this is to research history as izoid says.

Even archeological findings are revealing but the most important resources are writings of the ECFs. Try William Jurgen’s 3 vol. set, The Faith of the Early Fathers. Also conciliar decrees, encyclicals, Augustine, etc. One informative book is an early Church History, Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History. It seems rather funny to me now but I used to be suspicious of any document that would be supposed to come from strictly Catholic sources-sort of like JWs attitude towards “apostate literature”-you may not have that problem and should recognize that Catholic history is Protestant history.

As I study the Catholic view of Sacred Scripture together with Sacred Tradition with the Magesterium, I find that Sacred Scripture is considered supreme revelation as compared to Sacred Tradition. Just go to the Catholic Catehcism. Even with the Church Fathers, you will have problems trying to reconcile the various writings of early Church Fathers with each other as well as the Catholic Faith. Heck, I can point you to Reformed sites who actually post the entire works of the Early Church Fathers and actually uses their writings in defense of Reformed Theology.

 

[izoid]

Notice verse 5, "For this very reason, make every effort …

What reason Peter?

“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.”

Oh, so what shall we do?

make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

OK, So if I want to enjoy the assurance of my salvation in all of its richness, here is the means…by pursuing these qualities! If I do them and I find them increasing in my life, they render me neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So if I do not increase these things then what?

For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

OK, so a person who is not practicing these things is so blind that he doesn’t even enjoy the first blessing in which he was purified from his old sinful life. .

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

OK, so if I want to enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election, I should practice these things!

So just how many of these qualities do you need to posess in order to, “enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election”, all of them or only some of them. To what degree do you need to posess them, 100%, 90% or some other amount? What is the cutoff for you to not be able to, “enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election”?