The sufficiency of Christ

[Shannon9791]

I’m not talking about the summary statement, I am taking about the entire sections under Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Please try again.

That’s not the summary statement, chief, that’s CCC 80. Sorry I didn’t put the number for you. You try to tell us what our Catechism says, and when we prove you wrong you say that we’re not looking in the right section. You are one very frustrating individual. Here’s a question that I know you won’t answer. Do you think you know more about our theology than we do? I’m asking that honestly, b/c you’ve said several things on here that would suggest you think you do.

 

[fhansen]

Here is the section on Sacred Scripture according to the Catechism. Now compare it with the Sacred Tradition section.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

**76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34
  **

 

[2nd_Adam]

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

do you have a similar statement in the Catechism in regards to Sacred Tradition?

 

[2nd_Adam]

That’s not the summary statement, chief, that’s CCC 80. Sorry I didn’t put the number for you. You try to tell us what our Catechism says, and when we prove you wrong you say that we’re not looking in the right section. You are one very frustrating individual. Here’s a question that I know you won’t answer. Do you think you know more about our theology than we do? I’m asking that honestly, b/c you’ve said several things on here that would suggest you think you do.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

IN BRIEF

134 All sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, “because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2, 8: PL 176, 642: cf. ibid. 2, 9: PL 176, 642-643).

135 “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God” (DV 24).

136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).

137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit’s action’ (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).

138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.

139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.

140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfils the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.

141 “The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord” (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).

 

[PRmerger]

In your zeal for the defense of the Catholic Faith, I think you guys so bring this up with a Catholic Answers apologist. Sacred Scripture is God-breathed and I do not believe you would say that Sacred Tradition is God-breathed.

So are you saying that since the CC affirms that Sacred Scripture is “God-breathed” that this elevates Scripture over Tradition? Why would that follow? Adam was “God-breathed”, but not Eve. That does not elevate him over her. :nope:

 

[izoid]

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. - Colossians 2:8

There are two types of traditions. Apostolic tradtion as defined by the Apostles has been recorded in Sacred Scripture and is to be received by Christians. It’s interestng that you quoted the Apostle Paul three times, yet Catholics seem to avoid the Epistles of Paul like a plague.

Come on Adam, don’t get sloppy here. Colossians was written to a community that was being attacked by heretical teachers that held a defective view of Christ. This verse that you quote was warning the Colossians to not believe this heretical teaching, the human tradition. These people were teaching contrary to apostolic teaching ragarding Christs humanity AND diety. That is why verse 9 states,

" 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

 

[PRmerger]

Where do you get your information? I think you just make things up to tick us off.

Or, perhaps he’s trying to make us laugh?

 

[fhansen]

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

do you have a similar statement in the Catechism in regards to Sacred Tradition?

The only explicit statements you’ll find in the CCC related to any issue of supremacy or equality are such as these:

**81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.**

 

[2nd_Adam]

So are you saying that since the CC affirms that Sacred Scripture is “God-breathed” that this elevates Scripture over Tradition? Why would that follow? Adam was “God-breathed”, but not Eve. That does not elevate him over her. :nope:

Okay I posted the section on Sacred Scripture which is quite long. I’m unable to find the Sacred Tradition seciton of the Catholic Catechism. Can someone direct me to that section please?

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

 

[PRmerger]

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

do you have a similar statement in the Catechism in regards to Sacred Tradition?

This is what we have which, clearly and definitively, tells you that the CC holds both with equal reverence:

Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored [SIGN]with equal sentiments[/SIGN]of devotion and reverence." CCC 82

I hope you did not miss the word EQUAL there. Did you see that, Adam? EQUAL !

 

[fhansen]

Okay I posted the section on Sacred Scripture which is quite long. I’m unable to find the Sacred Tradition seciton of the Catholic Catechism. Can someone direct me to that section please?

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm

 

[2nd_Adam]

Come on Adam, don’t get sloppy here. Colossians was written to a community that was being attacked by heretical teachers that held a defective view of Christ. This verse that you quote was warning the Colossians to not believe this heretical teaching, the human tradition. These people were teaching contrary to apostolic teaching ragarding Christs humanity AND diety. That is why verse 9 states,

" 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

I’m always for the Apostolic Faith according to the Apostles! Does the Catholic Church have additional apparent writings of the Apostles in which I can read and consider?

 

[Rocket_Man]

So just how many of these qualities do you need to posess in order to, “enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election”, all of them or only some of them. To what degree do you need to posess them, 100%, 90% or some other amount? What is the cutoff for you to not be able to, “enjoy all the blessings and assurance of my election”?

Why does there need to be a cutoff? It’s pretty straight forward, moving forward brings assurance. Doing nothing breeds doubt.

 

[izoid]

I’m always for the Apostolic Faith according to the Apostles! Does the Catholic Church have additional apparent writings of the Apostles in which I can read and consider?

Yes Adam, it is the traditions that Paul spoke about and that the ECF’s wrote about. If you want to see how John’s theology was understood, read Polycarp, after all he was a disciple of John’s. It really does work Adam. Remember how important Scripture is? Do not neglect what these verses tell you to be true.

2 Thess. 2:15
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the **traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. **

2 Thess. 3:6
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

1 Cor. 11:2
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

These are oral traditions Adam, you cannot, with a clear conscience, deny that.

 

[izoid]

Why does there need to be a cutoff? It’s pretty straight forward, moving forward brings assurance. Doing nothing breeds doubt.

So what does it mean to be moving forward? Does have anything to do with what yoou DO?

 

[fhansen]

Why does there need to be a cutoff? It’s pretty straight forward, moving forward brings assurance. Doing nothing breeds doubt.

I think Catholics would agree with this so long as it allows, with Paul and Augustine, for assurance yet room for the need for vigilance/perseverance on our part.

 

[2nd_Adam]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

If I understand it, Sacred Tradition is just another way of teaching apostolic succession. All apostolic succession appears to be claiming is that the Catholic Church can tell us what is true or not. Yet, we have no source in the Catholic Catechism to tell us what are the actual contents of approved oral and written Sacred Tradition. It seems to me if you compare in size the actual contents of Sacred Scripture to actual written Sacred Tradition, the Bible would probably makeup a very small part of the Catholic Faith which would be clearly dominated by Sacred Tradition. I don’t mean to be offensive, but that’s how I currently see this. Our great divide remains

1. Justification (imputed verse infused)
2. Sola Scriptura verses the Magestrium

 

[fhansen]

Yet, we have no source in the Catholic Catechism to tell us what are the actual contents of approved oral and written Sacred Tradition.

The teachings of the Church-the CCC itself, for example- are “the actual contents of approved oral and written Sacred Tradition.” Additionally she references statements from both Scripture and Tradition to support her teachings in the CCC as well as in her many other Magisterial documents.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems to me if you compare in size the actual contents of Sacred Scripture to actual written Sacred Tradition, the Bible would probably makeup a very small part of the Catholic Faith which would be clearly dominated by Sacred Tradition.

NOW what are you saying? That we don’t value Scripture as much as Tradition?

That’s the exact opposite of what you said here:

Originally posted by Adam: Sacred Scripture is valued as being higher revelation that Sacred Tradition

 

[Shannon9791]

NOW what are you saying? That we don’t value Scripture as much as Tradition?

That’s the exact opposite of what you said here:

What he appears to be saying is that the bigger the book, the more stock we put into it.