The sufficiency of Christ

[PRmerger]

I’m confused if we are to continue posting in this thread or the new one? Help anyone?

You can continue to post here until the moderator closes it. Threads often run way over the 1000 post limit. Stopping at 1000 posts is not a firm rule.

 

[zerinus]

Why did our friends 2ndAdam and Rocketman abandon this thread? Were the questions too difficult?

I think they just got scared off by my posts!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Fair enough. Could you give us a listing of these essentials, with Scriptural references, and the non-essentials?

As a Bible-Christian you ought to be able to pick out these verses quite readily.

However, by your own standards, they ought to include some sort of phrasing that says, “this belief that I say to you today is an essential belief to your salvation” and “these things that I wrote to you today are non-essential”.

Maybe it would be easier for us if you could copy and paste these same statements from the Catholic Catechism and then we could go through them one by one. Fair enough?

 

[izoid]

Maybe it would be easier for us if you could copy and paste these same statements from the Catholic Catechism and then we could go through them one by one. Fair enough?

This is a very typical protestant tactic Rocket. When you can’t come up with an answer, put the other person on the defensive.

This is really silly. You made the statement between essentials and non essentials, not us. Why would you ask us to prove your argument for you?

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe it would be easier for us if you could copy and paste these same statements from the Catholic Catechism and then we could go through them one by one. Fair enough?

Rocket! YOU made this claim right here:

Originally posted by Rocket: In this case, when you have two varying opinions, we would go back to scripture for the answer. Many times, there isn’t a clear answer, especially when it’s not central to the Gospel. Such as baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15:29. Mormon’s have built a whole salvation doctrine from this one verse. We on the otherhand, and I think that includes you, find it inessential to the faith.

Let’s see you back it up. What are the central tenets of the Gospel, and how do you know?

 

[tweetymom]

I think they just got scared off by my posts!

I think not!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket! YOU made this claim right here:
Let’s see you back it up. What are the central tenets of the Gospel, and how do you know?

To quickly summarize, I think the text that supports the creed would be essential to the Gospel. I think that has been agreed among most Catholics and Protestants for years.

 

[PRmerger]

To quickly summarize, I think the text that supports the creed would be essential to the Gospel. I think that has been agreed among most Catholics and Protestants for years.

Indeed! What’s interesting, though, is that you have submitted to an authority outside of Scripture to determine what’s essential. It is the Church–that is, the Catholic Church–that has told you what’s essential. Not Scripture.

Thus, there are at least 2 things gleaned just from this thread, that you believe that’s not listed in Scripture:
-the canon of Scripture. Remember, no Sacred Tradition, no Sacred Scripture, for you would not know that, say, Revelations is inspired but the Didache is not, were it not for the authority of the CC.

-the list of “essentials”–the CC has given that to you, too!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Indeed! What’s interesting, though, is that you have submitted to an authority outside of Scripture to determine what’s essential. It is the Church–that is, the Catholic Church–that has told you what’s essential. Not Scripture.

Thus, there are at least 2 things gleaned just from this thread, that you believe that’s not listed in Scripture:
-the canon of Scripture. Remember, no Sacred Tradition, no Sacred Scripture, for you would not know that, say, Revelations is inspired but the Didache is not, were it not for the authority of the CC.

-the list of “essentials”–the CC has given that to you, too!

The CC did not give us the creed, they assembled the creed using the inspired Sacred Scripture. I guess I’m not understanding your reply. Can you soften it up a little?

 

[guanophore]

Ah… come on… you’re pulling my leg to conform to the Catholic view of baptismal regeneration. So, how long did you profess Christ before you were water baptised as a Protestant? I professed Christ at 18 years old, but was baptised as a professing believer in my late twenties. I also was baptised (not dedicated) as an infant in a Protestant Church.

The Apostles taugth that when Jesus said “one must be born from above by water and Spirit” he was talking about water baptism, at which time our sins are washed away, and we are “circumcised” in the heart by the HS.

 

[PRmerger]

The CC did not give us the creed, they assembled the creed using the inspired Sacred Scripture. I guess I’m not understanding your reply. Can you soften it up a little?

Even if you believe that the CC did not give us the creed (wasn’t there a Catholic council at Nicea from whence we get the Nicean Creed? Were there any Lutherans or Methodists there, or was it only Catholic bishops? But…on to my point!)…your list of essentials IS NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE. You have submitted to an outside authority to tell you what is essential. This is an extra-biblical tradition that you follow. That’s all I’m saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Even if you believe that the CC did not give us the creed (wasn’t there a Catholic council at Nicea from whence we get the Nicean Creed? Were there any Lutherans or Methodists there, or was it only Catholic bishops? But…on to my point!)…your list of essentials IS NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE. You have submitted to an outside authority to tell you what is essential. This is an extra-biblical tradition that you follow. That’s all I’m saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.

No one submitts to the CC or an outside authority when they agree to the statements contained in the creed. What they would submitt is that Holy Scripture confirms everything in the creed. Many denominations have their own creeds, statements of faith, etc. and also agree to the Nicean Creed. That doesn’t mean they are submitting to extra-biblical traditions.

Aren’t you glad we aren’t submitting to the extra-biblical traditions of the church at Corinth?

http://www.worldwaronecolorphotos.com/assets/images/db_images/db_82-231.jpg

 

[peary]

The sufficiency of Christ

I believe the essential difference between Protestants and Catholics is the work of Christ for sinners. It really has to do with the sufficiency of Christ. A Catholic brother posted on another thread that Christ is all sufficient. However, I believe the Protestant position is really about the sufficiency of Christ, and the Catholic view of the work of Christ is not the same. The Catholic position has a lower view of the work of Christ than Protestants in the disucssion of sufficiency.

There is a prayer known as the Fatima Prayer which some recite at the end of each decade of the Rosary. It simply says: “O My Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Bring all souls to Heaven, especially those in need of Your Mercy.”

Even in a prayer such as this, I fail to see where the Catholic position has a ‘lower’ view of the work of Christ than Protestants have. I’ve been a Catholic Christian all of my life, and what you state is quite foreign to my understanding of my faith.

Of course, St. Paul said, in Colossians1. 24: "I fill up the things that are lacking to the sufferings of Christ in my flesh, for His body, which is the Church." course, nothing is lacking to the sufferings of Christ considered as an individual. But the whole Christ, Head and members, can be deficient. Paul wants to make up for the a lack of opening in other members of Christ. And this he does through his own suffering. And this we too do in our own suffering when we unite that with Christ.

Maybe your misunderstanding of this passage is what leads you to conclude that Catholics have a ‘lower’ view of the work of Christ than Protestants. I don’t know.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is a prayer known as the Fatima Prayer which some recite at the end of each decade of the Rosary. It simply says: “O My Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Bring all souls to Heaven, especially those in need of Your Mercy.”

Even in a prayer such as this, I fail to see where the Catholic position has a ‘lower’ view of the work of Christ than Protestants have. I’ve been a Catholic Christian all of my life, and what you state is quite foreign to my understanding of my faith.

Of course, St. Paul said, in Colossians1. 24: "I fill up the things that are lacking to the sufferings of Christ in my flesh, for His body, which is the Church." course, nothing is lacking to the sufferings of Christ considered as an individual. But the whole Christ, Head and members, can be deficient. Paul wants to make up for the a lack of opening in other members of Christ. And this he does through his own suffering. And this we too do in our own suffering when we unite that with Christ.

Maybe your misunderstanding of this passage is what leads you to conclude that Catholics have a ‘lower’ view of the work of Christ than Protestants. I don’t know.

Thank you for sharing your beliefs in a kind manner. I believe what makes our view of the sufficiency of Christ higher is directly related to our mutually exclusive views of the biblical doctrine of justification. Please go back to the Sufficiency of Grace, a continuation of the Sufficiency of Christ family debate thread. I believe the moderators will close this particular thread due to the number of postings on it.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you for sharing your beliefs in a kind manner. I believe what makes our view of the sufficiency of Christ higher is directly related to our mutually exclusive views of the biblical doctrine of justification. Please go back to the Sufficiency of Grace, a continuation of the Sufficiency of Christ family debate thread. I believe the moderators will close this particular thread due to the number of postings on it.

I think you are talking about your beliefe that justification is a once in time, for all time event, is that right?

If I am correct about this, then the fact that Catholics reject this is not because we have a lower view of the sufficiency of Christ. We have a different view of the nature and God’s purpose for mankind, not a lower view of His grace.

 

[PRmerger]

No one submitts to the CC or an outside authority when they agree to the statements contained in the creed.

Yes, you are indeed submitting to an authority outside of Scripture to tell you what these “essentials” of the Gospel are.

Unless you want to provide us with a Scripture verse or two that tells us what these essentials are. Chapter and verse, please!

What they would submitt is that Holy Scripture confirms everything in the creed.

Yes. That is very Catholic of you to say that, Rocket!

Many denominations have their own creeds, statements of faith, etc. and also agree to the Nicean Creed. That doesn’t mean they are submitting to extra-biblical traditions

Yet if you ask them where these verses are in Scripture that tell them that these are essentials, they will not be able to provide you with any. They’re an understanding that has not come from Scripture, thus, they’re “extra-biblical”.

Aren’t you glad we aren’t submitting to the extra-biblical traditions of the church at Corinth?

Indeed! Again, you are being very Catholic when you say that!

 

[guanophore]

No one submitts to the CC or an outside authority when they agree to the statements contained in the creed. What they would submitt is that Holy Scripture confirms everything in the creed. Many denominations have their own creeds, statements of faith, etc. and also agree to the Nicean Creed. That doesn’t mean they are submitting to extra-biblical traditions.

Yes, Rocket, it most certainly does. The creeds and the canon of scripture were developed by, for, and about the Catholic faith. Those who accept them, whether they know it or not, are accepting what is Catholic. These are extrabiblical traditions. Do you think there is something wrong with extrabiblical traditions? Where did you get this idea that one should “submit to holy scripture”? What makes you think Scripture wields authority?

 Aren't you glad we aren't submitting to the extra-biblical traditions of the church at Corinth?

Not sure what you mean by this. I think Paul was referring to Pagan practices, not the Sacred Oral Tradition.