"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[izoid]

I’m very familar with Genesis 38. Remember, my college roomate was Catholic, and his twin brother has been a Priest for over 20 years. Many Catholics practice approved and unapproved forms of birth control all the time. As a Catholic brother who reject sola scriptura, you have much more to worry about in Scripture revelation than Genesis 38.

So, if I got a bunch of people together and we all committed adultery on a regular basis would that then not be sin?

There you go again with that unprovable doctrine of sola scriptura. Come on Adam, I will stop pestering you if you can show me where it is taught in the Scriptures.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So, if I got a bunch of people together and we all committed adultery on a regular basis would that then not be sin?

There you go again with that unprovable doctrine of sola scriptura. Come on Adam, I will stop pestering you if you can show me where it is taught in the Scriptures.

Hey, if you choose to be Catholic, I am glad you are bound by the Magestrium and Tradition over Sacred Scripture alone. I grew up with many Catholic friends, and my dad was raised in a nominal Catholic family… therefore, I am quite familar with the fruits of Tradition over Sacred Scripture alone.

 

[izoid]

Oh, the visible church has been wrong on many issues throughout the ages such as racial discrimination, support of American slavery, gender discrimination, divorce discrimination, and currently sexual orientation discrimination. The visible church is made up of redeemed sinners who are all sinners in process who know in part and unregenerate men. The visible churches are always a mix of the remnant and those who are still united to Adam. I don’t have the same high view of the visible church like you. I do have an extremely high view of the remnant church which Christ is the head. If you reread 1 Cor 2, you will find that those without the Spirit of God are unable to discern spiritual truths. That is why the visible church struggles in this world.

So tell me, which denomination is made up of all of those who are members of the invisible church? It seems to me that would be the church to attend,

 

[izoid]

Hey, if you choose to be Catholic, I am glad you are bound by the Magestrium and Tradition over Sacred Scripture alone. I grew up with many Catholic friends, and my dad was raised in a nominal Catholic family… therefore, I am quite familar with the fruits of Tradition over Sacred Scripture alone.

I sense avoidance. Funny how this is an ongoing practice of yours.

Show me where sola scriptura is TAUGHT in Scripture. Come on, it is what is at the very heart of our inability to discuss things with each other. If it is so clearly taught this should be easy.

Is it possible that it is a man made doctrine? Maybe the only reason it was developed was because a group of people did not want to submit to the Church authority. Could it be that the only way to justify this disobedience was to challenge the legitimacy of that very authority?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I sense avoidance. Funny how this is an ongoing practice of yours.

Show me where sola scriptura is TAUGHT in Scripture. Come on, it is what is at the very heart of our inability to discuss things with each other. If it is so clearly taught this should be easy.

Is it possible that it is a man made doctrine? Maybe the only reason it was developed was because a group of people did not want to submit to the Church authority. Could it be that the only way to justify this disobedience was to challenge the legitimacy of that very authority?

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us. - Peter Kreeft

Until you are able to reconcile the Bible verses on my signature with Catholic Theology, issues like birth control and sola scriptura are pretty much non-issues in our discussion. The gospel of God’s grace and the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace are much more essential issues, don’t you agree?

 

[zerinus]

As I posted before, all mankind are still born in the image of God, but in a fallen and broken way. The evidence is in our deaths. Even Mary had to be rescued from original sin. I’m not sure what you want to discuss about Cornelius. Are you trying to say sinners are saved apart from faith in Christ, or by their own personal righteousness?

According to the scriptures, there is no difference between being in the image of God and the image of Adam. If Adam is made in the image of God, then being in the image of Adam is the same as being in the image of God.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[izoid]

Why is it so difficult for you to admit that you don’t have an answer? You could at least use the line that goes something like this, “God has chosen to keep this truth hidden and once we are in His precense we will fully understand”.

I will once again challenge to prove the argument that you stand on when you don’t have an answer. Prove sola scriptura.

What I am curious about is why you don’t answer the tough questions even when I give you my scriptural support of those teachings. I realize that birth control is not one of those topics that are taught in protestant apologetic courses but you did seem to have a pretty strong position on it. If that is the case and sola scritura rules the day, then why not exegete Genesis 38:8-10 for us?

 

[izoid]

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us. - Peter Kreeft

Until you are able to reconcile the Bible verses on my signature with Catholic Theology, issues like birth control and sola scriptura are pretty much non-issues in our discussion. The gospel of God’s grace and the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace are much more essential issues, don’t you agree?

Let me go ahead andpost the concluding paragraph for you:

The split of the Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic discovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book. It can end only when both Protestants and Catholics do the same thing today and understand what they are doing: discovering a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

Maybe some day, you too will discover this Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

BTW…Would you say that your Calvinist church holds the same beliefs asLuther and Lutherans?

 

[izoid]

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love. That is clearly the biblical view, and when Protestants and Catholics who know and believe the Bible discuss the issue sincerely, it is amazing how quickly and easily they come to understand and agree with each other on this, the fundamental divisive issue. Try it some time with your Protestant friend.

But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus!

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us. - Peter Kreeft

Until you are able to reconcile the Bible verses on my signature with Catholic Theology, issues like birth control and sola scriptura are pretty much non-issues in our discussion. The gospel of God’s grace and the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace are much more essential issues, don’t you agree?

Several of us have challenged you on taking Catholic teachers out of context. In fact, you used this exact link and post in the past. It was clearly brought to your attention that what you did was disingenuous at best. Why do you do it again?

 

[2nd_Adam]

The proof of sola scriptura is in our discussion and debate of the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace. It seems you are asking Protestants to reject divine revelation by God Himself (God-breathed) and replace it with other kinds of lower forms of teaching. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed revelation from above?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Several of us have challenged you on taking Catholic teachers out of context. In fact, you used this exact link and post in the past. It was clearly brought to your attention that what you did was disingenuous at best. Why do you do it again?

The link is there, so read the entire link in context. You guys always get upset with Catholic links such as “Catholic need to read their Bibles”, or justification by faith alone by Pope Benedict. However, I always post the link together with the cut and paste so everyone can read the source in its entire context.

 

[izoid]

The proof of sola scriptura is in our discussion and debate of the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace. It seems you are asking Protestants to reject divine revelation by God Himself (God-breathed) and replace it with other kinds of lower forms of teaching. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed revelation from above?

Give me one verse that proves your position.

Stop making things up. Nobody is asking anyone to reject divine revelation. THis is another one of your smear tactics when you can’t answer the question.

 

[guanophore]

Wait a minute… are you saying Protestants are immoral because in our conscience before God… most Protestants use different forms of birth control that Catholics don’t?

No, I am saying that, for a Catholic to support birith control is not “minor”. Catholics believe that, from the moment of conception, it is a human person. The vast majority of contraceptive forms kill the zygote (fertilized egg) which is why it is considered “grave matter”.

This was one of the things I was talking about when I said that her theology remained Protestant.

A well formed conscience will include all the truth that God has revealed to humanity. This includes His plan for human reproduction. Catholics (and Protestants) that use contraception do not have a well formed conscience. Most of them don’t even realize they are killing a fertilized egg. However, all this belongs over in the moral questions area of apologetics, though I think there might be a thread running on social justice also. It is a frequent topic around here, so I am sure, if you want to discuss it, we can find an appropriate place. A person can commit an immoral act, but that doesn ot make them immoral person.

God’s grace is more than sufficient to overcome the sins that people commit even when they are acting in “good conscience”.

 

[izoid]

The proof of sola scriptura is in our discussion and debate of the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace. It seems you are asking Protestants to reject divine revelation by God Himself (God-breathed) and replace it with other kinds of lower forms of teaching. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed revelation from above?

What does 1 Thess. 2:13 tell us?

13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Give me one verse that proves your position.

Stop making things up. Nobody is asking anyone to reject divine revelation. THis is another one of your smear tactics when you can’t answer the question.

Simply let me know if Sacred Tradition is considered to be God-breathed revelation from above. When I look at the Catholic Catechism, there is a long section on Sacred Scripture. But not much is written about Sacred Tradition in the Catechism in comparision. The Protestant Reformation was based on the biblical doctrine of justiification and authority. These are historical divides which still continue today. Scripture alone defines the essential truths like the gospel of God and the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace.

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

 

[izoid]

Simply let me know if Sacred Tradition is considered to be God-breathed revelation from above. When I look at the Catholic Catechism, there is a long section on Sacred Scripture. But not much is written about Sacred Tradition in the Catechism in comparision. The Protestant Reformation was based on the biblical doctrine of justiification and authority. These are historical divides which still continue today. Scripture alone defines the essential truths like the gospel of God and the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace.

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

I answered this in #492.

Now, please point me to the verse that proves sola scriptura. Once you do that, you can then point me to verses that define essential verses non essential doctrines.

I feel like I continue to provide you Scriptural evidence for the Catholic teachings yet you continue to point me to quotes from men about what the Catholic Church teaches. I thought you were the sola scriptura guy and I was the one that was following man made traditions.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So tell me, which denomination is made up of all of those who are members of the invisible church? It seems to me that would be the church to attend,

The invisible church is know by God alone.

 

[2nd_Adam]

What does 1 Thess. 2:13 tell us?

13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

The us is the Apostles… I have no troubles with apostolic teaching as recorded. Are you saying the Catholic Church has addiitonal teachings of the Apostles that Protestants do not have?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Let me go ahead andpost the concluding paragraph for you:

The split of the Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic discovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book. It can end only when both Protestants and Catholics do the same thing today and understand what they are doing: discovering a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

Maybe some day, you too will discover this Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

BTW…Would you say that your Calvinist church holds the same beliefs asLuther and Lutherans?

I don’t even attend a Calvinist church whatever you mean by a Calvinist church. Calvinism is not the gospel.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, I am saying that, for a Catholic to support birith control is not “minor”. Catholics believe that, from the moment of conception, it is a human person. The vast majority of contraceptive forms kill the zygote (fertilized egg) which is why it is considered “grave matter”.

What are you talking about a fertilized egg? I think your facts are incorrect? I believe the vast majority of contraceptive forms do not kill the fertilized egg.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods