"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[guanophore]

As I posted before, all mankind are still born in the image of God, but in a fallen and broken way. The evidence is in our deaths. Even Mary had to be rescued from original sin.

Ok, well this helps. The evidence, though, is more than in our deaths, though that is important too. It is in our tendency to go in the opposite direction from what God wants. My Latin brethren call this “concupiscence”. In scripture, it is called “the old man”.

I have a question along those lines. Is the description Paul gives in Rom 7 something he describes about himself in the present?

  I'm not sure what you want to discuss about Cornelius.

I want to know, at which point you believe he was rejenerated. I think that we both agree that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. I think that you believe a person is regenerated, and that is why they are able to make decisions that draw them closer to God, such as assembling with others of like mind and spirit.

Are you trying to say sinners are saved apart from faith in Christ, or by their own personal righteousness?

No, is that what you think Cornelius was doing, trying to be saved by his own personal righteousness?

 

[guanophore]

I love your new religious title, it is very biblical. I find that thereis a mix of Catholics… those who are biblical Catholics, and those who love tradition more than the Bible… (IMO).

At least it is more honest, and I appreciate that, for sure. It advertises clearly that she is still under the influence of Protestant theology, which seems more genuine.

“Catholics” who love tradition more than the bible have fallen short in their Catholicity as well. The Apostles taught that Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equal strands of the same thread, and should be respected equally and together. As I have posted in other threads, I was not taught to read and be immersed in scripture as a youth, which accounts for a large part of the reason I left the Catholic Church. There is some very poor spiritual formation that goes on.

 

[guanophore]

Help me out here… are you saying God chose certain Old Testament Saints based on their own personal righteousness?

No, God always saves by grace, through faith. In that grace, through faith, He also makes righteous those He has chosen. He interacts with them in accordance with their deeds, which, because of His grace, are righteous.

 

[PRmerger]

Were you aware that virtually all protestant denominations prohibited birth control as late as 1930?

Yes, indeed. I find that piece of information startling–it’s as if one by one, slowly, each Protestant denomination succumbed to the pressure of the Deceiver.

And, abortion is the natural consequence of the birth control mentality that says “everyone is entitled to sex without a baby ever showing up in the picture”.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, God always saves by grace, through faith. In that grace, through faith, He also makes righteous those He has chosen. He interacts with them in accordance with their deeds, which, because of His grace, are righteous.

Okay, then you reject what Zee the Mormon posted in regards to God saving Old Testament saints based on their own righteousness. Your statement of “He also makes righteous those He has chosen” appears that you are growing into Calvinism.

 

[guanophore]

I’d rather hear your words on the issue.

Ok, but y’all need to start a different thread, or take it over to where they are already in process.

 

[zerinus]

Help me out here… are you saying God chose certain Old Testament Saints based on their own personal righteousness?

I don’t know about guan, but that is what I am saying, yes.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, indeed. I find that piece of information startling–it’s as if one by one, slowly, each Protestant denomination succumbed to the pressure of the Deceiver.

And, abortion is the natural consequence of the birth control mentality that says “everyone is entitled to sex without a baby ever showing up in the picture”.

Please don’t change this thread into a moral gospel debate. We all know Christ came to save sinners and not the self righteous. If you want to start a thread about the moral gospel, that’s fine, but it is not related to this thread. Before you do, you might want to study Romans chapter 2 and the moral man earning his way to Heaven based on his own morality.

Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Matt

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - 1 Tim

And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” - Luke

 

[zerinus]

Okay, then you reject what Zee the Mormon posted in regards to God saving Old Testament saints based on their own righteousness. Your statement of “He also makes righteous those He has chosen” appears that you are growing into Calvinism.

Choosing and saving are two different things.

 

[PRmerger]

Now, please point me to the verse that proves sola scriptura. Once you do that, you can then point me to verses that define essential verses non essential doctrines.

There will be not a single Protestant who will respond to this challenge.

But it’s important to keep bringing this up, despite the circumlocutions and obfuscations about SS and “essentials vs non-essentials”. If only for the lurkers who will have a seed planted that they’ve never heard preached from the pulpit.

 

[guanophore]

I have one question I would like you to answer in regards to birth control. Are Protestants in perpetual sin in our practice of temporary and permanent forms of birth control?

I made you a thread over here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5997674#post5997674

Perhaps you and Tweety will be able to provide a biblical view of why this is an ok thing to do?

 

[2nd_Adam]

There will be not a single Protestant who will respond to this challenge.

There is no challenge because it’s about what is actually written. We are discussing the actual contents of Scripture which many Catholics are not very knowledgable about. That’s a fact that Catholics have verified themselves. Do you remember the thread of “Catholics need to read their Bibles” based on a Catholic article posted on Catholic Answers?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I made you a thread over here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5997674#post5997674

Perhaps you and Tweety will be able to provide a biblical view of why this is an ok thing to do?

I have no interest to discuss a moral gospel. Catholics are welcome to their own view of birth control. You can fight out the issue within the Catholic Church between yourselves. Please don’t pull in Protestants. Some Protestants believe similar to you, but it is left up to the conscience of individual Protestants. Catholics practice birth control too. Most Catholic that I knew used approved and unapproved forms of birth control. I also have no idea how Priests and nuns are unable to marry in light of Scripture, especially since Peter was married. It sure seems that Mary and Joseph were blessed with many children of their own too. Now, let’s get back to our historical divide of justification… resulting in the sufficiency of Christ and the sufficiency of grace, shall we?

 

[guanophore]

That’s too much, linking birth control with abortion among Christians. You know as wells as I know, that many Catholics use birth control all the time. I think the birth control debate should stay within the wall of the Catholic Church… please keep the Protestant Christians out of that one.

This is an interesting statement, since you are the one that brought it into the discussion.

Most modern forms of birth control are abortive. However, that belongs on another thread. I don’t even think it is germaine to this thread that sin is sin, no matter who commits it. When Jesus gave the duty to Peter to feed and care for the sheep, it was for all the sheep, including those who have gone astray from the fold.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is an interesting statement, since you are the one that brought it into the discussion.

Most modern forms of birth control are abortive. However, that belongs on another thread. I don’t even think it is germaine to this thread that sin is sin, no matter who commits it. When Jesus gave the duty to Peter to feed and care for the sheep, it was for all the sheep, including those who have gone astray from the fold.

No I didn’t my friend. Some Catholic attacked Tweetymom on the issue.

 

[zerinus]

izoid;5997420:

Now, please point me to the verse that proves sola scriptura. Once you do that, you can then point me to verses that define essential verses non essential doctrines.

There will be not a single Protestant who will respond to this challenge.

In fairness to the Protestants (Mormons also believe in a kind of sola scriptura), can Catholics point to a verse in the Bible that says that scripture is not sufficient to teach us what we need to know about God? And bear in mind that the Jews also had a scripture plus a tradition. Jesus, however, while fully accepting their scripture, did not always accept their tradition. So what makes Catholic tradition any better than the Jewish one?

 

[guanophore]

That’s true, since our sources of divine revelation are completly different. Protestants are bound by the Word of God (Sacred Scripture). Catholics are bound by the Magestrium. That was settled at the Protestant Reformation. The Magestrium cannot bound Christians that are not Catholic. I’m so glad for Sola Scriptura as being the authorative truth from above.

No, Adam, you are making slanderous remarks that are not productive tot he discussion. You know well that we both accept that Jesus is our Source of Divine revelation. He is the image of the invisible God, and in Him are contained all the qualities of the Godhead bodily.

Catholics recognize that authority is something that is wielded by persons, not books, however, holy. We consider the Sacred Scripture authoritative, and “profitable” for what we need to know to live the life of God in Christ.

Yes, Jesus sent the Apostles with His own authority, and told them “he that receives you, receives me”, so we obey the leaders He has appointed over us, as unto Him. However, there is no conflict between the Sacred Scripture and the Authority he appointed to teach them.

The teaching of Jesus as preserved in the Church applies to all members of the flock, whether they are separated from us by doctrine, rebellion, or both.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, Adam, you are making slanderous remarks that are not productive tot he discussion. You know well that we both accept that Jesus is our Source of Divine revelation. He is the image of the invisible God, and in Him are contained all the qualities of the Godhead bodily.

Catholics recognize that authority is something that is wielded by persons, not books, however, holy. We consider the Sacred Scripture authoritative, and “profitable” for what we need to know to live the life of God in Christ.

Yes, Jesus sent the Apostles with His own authority, and told them “he that receives you, receives me”, so we obey the leaders He has appointed over us, as unto Him. However, there is no conflict between the Sacred Scripture and the Authority he appointed to teach them.

The teaching of Jesus as preserved in the Church applies to all members of the flock, whether they are separated from us by doctrine, rebellion, or both.

I am not making slanderous remarks. You are reading beyond my intent. Protestants consider Sacred Scripture as being the final source of authority, and Catholics do not. Do you disagree with my understanding? My position is the historic divide of the cause of the Protestant Reformation. I agree that Apostolic teaching is authorative when we define apostolic teaching within the teachings of the Apostles. Now, if you have additional writings of the Apostles, please let me know.

 

[guanophore]

Genesis 38:8-10.

Now, I gave you my verse for birth control, you give me yours to support sola scriptura.

PLEASE Izoid! Let us try to stay focused here. Let’s focus on the sufficiency of grace. I think that 2nd believes that any righteousness in man comes from man, which is why he calls it “personal righteousness”. This is at the heart of some of our differences with our Reformed brethren.

 

[ryanoneil]

There is another shared sola of grace alone! Even if we agree of grace alone, we need to discuss the sufficiency of grace too.

I suspect we have two different definitions of sufficiency of grace.

What is your understanding?