"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[2nd_Adam]

Let me put this in another way.

Adam’s original sin marred all of humanity.
Christ is the new Adam.
If Adam’s original sin affected all of humanity, do you think Christ would only save a select few of humanity and be still called the New Adam? Sure

Whom is God going to send to save the other affected by Adam’s original sin? No other savior

Historic Christianity is not universalism. Are we on the same page yet? The answer to your questions are found in Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15. Not all of humanity will be part of the 2nd Adam or new Adam. Many die as individuals united to the 1st Adam, and will continue to be part of the old creation.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Historic Christianity is not universalism. Are we on the same page yet?

Again, I said before I don’t endorse universalism. I don’t believe that all man will be saved and there’s no such thing as Hell.

Answer the question. Yes, some will lost and others will be saved. I’m talking about Christ’s title and mission as Savior.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again, I said before I don’t endorse universalism. I don’t believe that all man will be saved and there’s no such thing as Hell.

Answer the question. Yes, some will lost and others will be saved. I’m talking about Christ’s title and mission as Savior.

Christ came to save His people from their sins. His people were chosen before the foundations of the world by the Father in whom Christ died for. Are you familar with John 6 and John 10 and John 17? We are discussing biblical revelation and not man’s wisdom.

 

[guanophore]

If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10). If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved by assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the effectual work of the Holy Spirit, who makes all whom He calls gladly and willingly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray from the plain teaching of Scripture by exalting the natural ability of man, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).
Adapted from The Council of Orange (529 AD)

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/

Adam, you are not making any sense. I replied to another poster, saying that a person could be saved who might be a Muslim. You then accused me of Pelagianism. Now, you post a passage from the Council of Orange, demonstrating the point I was making in the first place?!

Are you just avoiding the questions?

when was Cornelius saved?

Why can’t God give grace to a Muslim?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Christ came to save His people from their sins. His people were chosen before the foundations of the world by the Father in whom Christ died for. Are you familar with John 6 and John 10 and John 17? We are discussing biblical revelation and not man’s wisdom.

Did you see my original post?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam, you are not making any sense. I replied to another poster, saying that a person could be saved who might be a Muslim. You then accused me of Pelagianism. Now, you post a passage from the Council of Orange, demonstrating the point I was making in the first place?!

Are you just avoiding the questions?

when was Cornelius saved?

Why can’t God give grace to a Muslim?

I gave you a response to Cornelius. Do you mind copying and posting it and we can continue on Cornelius if you’d like.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Did you see my original post?

You have to be specific because I am having a discussion with a handful of Catholics at the same time, on various topics. I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

 

[guanophore]

Really?

Yes, Really. God pours out His grace upon all men, and calls everyone to repent, and believe in the gospel. Why would you think He would NOT pour it on a Muslim? Do you think that people cannot be saved because they are Muslim? That is like the Jews saying that Gentiles cannot be saved unless they are circumcised!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You have to be specific because I am having a discussion with a handful of Catholics at the same time, on various topics. I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

I linked it in post 696.

 

[guanophore]

Irresistible Grace Expressed
The Westminster Confession of Faith expresses this doctrine by saying, “All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.” (Chap. X, Sect. 1)

Since I am not of Reformed Theology maybe you can help me. In the Westminster Confession, it states that only the elect CAN come to God but in Ryan Oneils post, the one you agreed with, he states that all men can come and that some reject. Please help me understand what I am missing here.

Do you believe that ALL men are given the ability to respond positively to Gods grace?

I think that the Reformed position is that God predestined the Elect before the foundation of the world and that those who respond to His call do so because they were predestined to do so. Those that do not are those that were not Elected, they are what 2nd callse “bastards and goats”, and they do not respond because they are not of His flock. They freely choose that which is in accordance with theri hearts,which are not inclined toward God.

 

[guanophore]

A Catholic Calvinist in one who leans more to a Thomist and Augustinian position in regards to predestination, election, free will, and view of grace than the other end of the spectrum within allowable Catholic views as being Catholic.

Except that, since Calvin espoused heretical views and left the Apostolic Church, we call them Augustinian Catholics, after the Dr. of the Church who remained faithful to the authority appointed by Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, Really. God pours out His grace upon all men, and calls everyone to repent, and believe in the gospel. Why would you think He would NOT pour it on a Muslim? Do you think that people cannot be saved because they are Muslim? That is like the Jews saying that Gentiles cannot be saved unless they are circumcised!

There is certainly common grace in which the righteous and unrighteous receive. Every day of life is a gift from God. In addition, since all have sinned, God is merciful and graceful to continue to give men life apart from immediate judgment. When you say God has poured out His grace upon all men, what kind of grace are you speaking about? Ryan makes a distinction between grace received by the elect of God and withheld from the non-elect. We are all born into different circumstances and privileges based on the grace of God. We are born into different economic status, natural intelligent, appearance and looks, etc… all by the grace of God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think that the Reformed position is that God predestined the Elect before the foundation of the world and that those who respond to His call do so because they were predestined to do so. Those that do not are those that were not Elected, they are what 2nd callse “bastards and goats”, and they do not respond because they are not of His flock. They freely choose that which is in accordance with theri hearts,which are not inclined toward God.

I think that’s a pretty accurate statement on how I see things.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1

Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, - rom 8

 

[Dancelittleewok]

There is certainly common grace in which the righteous and unrighteous receive. Every day of life is a gift from God. In addition, since all have sinned, God is merciful and graceful to continue to give men life apart from immediate judgment. When you say God has poured out His grace upon all men, what kind of grace are you speaking about? Ryan makes a distinction between grace received by the elect of God and withheld from the non-elect. We are all born into different circumstances and privileges based on the grace of God. We are born into different economic status, natural intelligent, appearance and looks, etc… all by the grace of God.

But God wouldn’t grant all men a chance at eternal life but is still called Savior? Please respond to my post.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand the big deal about Cornelius. I was reading this account by a Centurion. Is it similar to Cornelius?

No. I want to have a discussion with you about the sufficiency of grace.

you seem to think that God cannot elect a Muslim to salvation. Do you think Cornelius was saved? If so, when did this happen?

 

[2nd_Adam]

But God wouldn’t grant all men a chance at eternal life but is still called Savior? Please respond to my post.

I don’t mean to give you are hard time, but I just don’t follow you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No. I want to have a discussion with you about the sufficiency of grace.

you seem to think that God cannot elect a Muslim to salvation. Do you think Cornelius was saved? If so, when did this happen?

Did you find my response to Cornelius with my posting on it. If so, plese quote it and we can continue on Cornelius. Are you saying the Muslim will believe in the Biblical Christ and receive the gospel when preached to? Or are you saying the Muslim will be saved apart from hearing the gospel?

 

[guanophore]

lacking as in…not there

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

So are you saying it is okay for the CC to add or take away any books of the Bible except for Revelations?

No, all INCLUDING Revelation.

I never said I had it all figured out, I come here to discuss our differences in light of Scripture, and I expect to learn as well.

Had you considered being open to why we see things differently? That would mean, instead of making assertions that are not conducive to good discussion, such as “there is no support for this in scripture” you might say something like, “I would like to learn where Catholics see this in Scripture”.

 You kind of just supported a view of mine that says God will lead you if you lean on His understanding and NOT on mans understanding a.k.a. Tradition!

Sacred Tradition, Cr8ton, is from God, not from man. there is nothing inherintly wrong with human tradition, as long as it does not go against what God has revealed.

Why do your refuse to follow the commandments of the Apostles with regard to the keeping of Tradition, just as it was delivered by them?

 

[2nd_Adam]

But God wouldn’t grant all men a chance at eternal life but is still called Savior? Please respond to my post.

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” - Matthew 1

For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3

The High Priestly Prayer

17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. [1] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them [2] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, [3] that they also may be sanctified [4] in truth.

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” - John 17

 

[guanophore]

I never said that Jesus was a sinner nor did I bring up angels. By all, we were taking about humans as referenced in your other posts about men. Can Jesus be called the New Adam if He only died for the elect, only select few of humanity? Whom is God going to send to redeem the rest?

I think the Reformed view is that God never intended to save the rest.

In that sense, The Apostle makes a mistake in saying that Jesus is a 2nd Adam, since what Adam did affected all of humanity, but what Jesus did affected only a few. He probably just used a bad analogy there. It would have been better to compare Jesus to the 2nd Noah!