"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[coracobb]

A Scofield Study Bible is a dispenstational Arminian Study Bible. It is not a Calvinistic Study Bible; I used to own one. Okay, if you want to be a Catholic Calvinist… please purchase this study Bible.

ligonier.org/publishing_studybible.php

OK Adam,

I see that you are a Reformation Study Bible Salesman. You are quite good at getting attention and drawing people into your little web. I am not complaining, I guess that is what caught my attention. I am not sure I am interested in studying another point of view at this point. I would appreciate you telling me about Calvinistic Catholics so I don’t have to buy another Bible. Somehow I don’t think there is such a thing. As I went through RCIA at times I thought my head would explode with all the new information I was getting. Even so I made it and now I am here and paln to stay, I am home.

God Bless

Cora

 

[guanophore]

As you know, what you consider ongoing justfication, Protestants call that portion of salvation as sanctification. Do you think a Catholic is justifed, then loses his justification and returns to the kingdom of darkness, and later regains his lost justification and becomes united to Christ again? Is this the Catholic pattern of salvation?

The Apostles taught that the sealing of the HS in baptism is permanent, so if a person returns to a life of sin, his last state is actually WORSE than the first.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Jesus talked about this in the parable of the seed/soils. These are the seeds that sprouted, and were choked out.

 

[2nd_Adam]

OK Adam,

I see that you are a Reformation Study Bible Salesman. You are quite good at getting attention and drawing people into your little web. I am not complaining, I guess that is what caught my attention. I am not sure I am interested in studying another point of view at this point. I would appreciate you telling me about Calvinistic Catholics so I don’t have to buy another Bible. Somehow I don’t think there is such a thing. As I went through RCIA at times I thought my head would explode with all the new information I was getting. Even so I made it and now I am here and paln to stay, I am home.

God Bless

Cora

I have found that the Catholic Church allows a wide range of views on issues related to election and predestination. I believe a Calvinistic Catholic would lean toward an Augustinian and Thomist view in regards to predestination, free will, and election. Here’s a good place to start. However, I think Catholics tend misrepresent Calvinism as a whole, and actually think hyper-Calvinism is true Calvinism which it’s not.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

James 2:24 (King James Version)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We must have faith in God’s grace. We are saved by grace through faith, but not faith alone. We must remain in the state of grace by avoiding mortal sin, sin which “leads to death”, as Saint John puts it. Saint Paul also mentions that there are sins that cause us to lose the Kingdom of God.

By the way, I love your signature. It’s refreshing to see a Protestant with seemingly no signs of anti-Catholicism or misguided assumptions regarding the Faith.

The sin that leads to death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is a description of an apostate. Nothing to do with mortal sins as you have been taught to understand, but since you are told what you must believe then this is less than 2 cents worth.

Based on you interpretation of James, please reconcile that to Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 for me…thank you.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I have found that the Catholic Church allows a wide range of views on issues related to election and predestination. I believe a Calvinistic Catholic would lean toward an Augustinian and Thomist’s view in regards to predestination, free will, and election.

What would a Christian believe in regards to election?

 

[2nd_Adam]

What would a Christian believe in regards to election?

A biblical Christian would believe like a Calvinist! A humanist Christian would believe like an Arminian. I think you are sorry that you asked. Are you sure you’re not related to John Piper the Calvinist?

spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon

 

[guanophore]

You can’t make circular arguments because our definition of the church is mutually exclusive of each other.

You are mixing up your posters, 2nd. Our definitions are not mutually exclusive. You and I are in agreement that Christ died for all members of the Body. Nobody was “left out”, and another saviour does not need to be sent for the one’s that were not “covered” by his sacrifice.

The body of Christ includes all who have been united to Christ by faith through the Spirit. The remnant chosen by grace goes way beyond the Catholic walls, and you know that’s true.

As I said, we are in agreement. I am not making a circular arguement.

However, the remnant does not extend to those who do not believe in the biblical Christ and His glorious gospel. The remnant in the Mormon church, Muslim Church, Judaism, Hinduism, and other non-Christian religions will hear the true gospel proclaimed and respond by receiving it… thus leaving their old religions. Christ has built His Church on the profession of Peter the little rock.

Right.

so why is Christ compared with Adam, when the analogy does not fit? why was He nto compared to Noah, since He only died for a small remnant that will be saved? Why does scripture say everyone is saved through Him?

and when was Cornelius justified?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

A biblical Christian would believe like a Calvinist! A humanist Christian would believe like an Arminian. I think you are sorry that you asked. Are you sure you’re not related to John Piper the Calvinist?

spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon

A Christian believes God meant what He said. What did He say? Romans 8 is as clear as it can get, but as you probably know, there are many places in Scripture that teach that God decides and by His sovereignty. I think we forget that we are the creation, not the creator.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s continue with this thought, for it is why we are discussing the sufficiency of Christ and sufficiency of grace. The Christian life is not one of moving from the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdom of light, and back to the kingdom of darkness and back to the kingdom of light. We are permanenly adopted into the family of God through our Elder Brother (Jesus Christ), or adoption through propitiation.

I agree that we are permanently adopted into teh family of God, but that does not keep us from going back into a life of darkness and sin. Though we are acquitted of our sins when we come to Him in faith, the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separated people from God, and being acquitted of sins does not preclude becoming guilty for committing them again.

 

[guanophore]

I can agree with that with small modifications. Do you agree with me that God’s grace which was merited by Christ is sufficient to save and redeem the fallen Angels?

I am sure that God’s grace is more than sufficient to save and redeem whoever He chooses, however He likes. It was not part of God’s plan for the salvation of humanity to include the fallen angels. If God wished to apply the merits of Christ’s suffering in such a way, I am sure He could. However, the angels are not under the covenants that God has made with man, and are not part of the eternal debt that man has incurred as a result of refusal to follow the commandments of God. Jesus became man to die for mankind, to redeem humanity.

 

[guanophore]

Ryan, Adam believes that unbelief is the only mortal sin. I assume from what you’ve posted, probably affirms that you believe all that and since you’ve acknowledged the salvation isn’t assured, he’s gonna try to evangelize you right now.

Actually, I am not at all sure that 2nd believes in evangelism. He believes that God has predestined who He wants to save before the beginning of time. He believes that God’s grace will find, justify, sanctify, and glorify them. God’s grace will do this without fail, and therefore, there is really no need for 2nd to “win souls”. He is just trying to identify who his siblings in Christ already are, so that he can fan the flame of their love for God.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I agree that we are permanently adopted into teh family of God, but that does not keep us from going back into a life of darkness and sin. Though we are acquitted of our sins when we come to Him in faith, the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separated people from God, and being acquitted of sins does not preclude becoming guilty for committing them again.

Do you not understand what sets the Christian apart from all others? The Christian is a “New Creation” IN CHRIST JESUS. So if someone decides to live in a continuous and unabated path of sin; is that person a “New Creation” IN CHRIST JESUS?

I don’t understand how Catholics believe they can loose their salvation unless they never had it to begin with because God promises the redeemed that He will complete the work which He started. Man cannot complete anything good apart from the presence of God in them; this is the Christian.

Good night; got to aim for the ZZZZZZ’s right now.

 

[guanophore]

I believe the gospel will be preached to All God’s elect, and in His timing, the Elect will receive the truth of the gospel. We have no idea if someone is an elect until you proclaim the gospel to that person. And even if that person rejects the truth, it does not mean later in life that he won’t receive it. I think you are emtering dangerous grounds to give people hope apart from faith in Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the gospel. You cannot change the great good news of God as accountable bad news, because all are condemned prior to hearing the gospel. Christ came to save and rescue His people from their sins. No, I do not believe the Islamic Religion saves sinners. They don’t even believe that Christ was crucified for their sins. If Muslims are saved through Islam, who will pay for their sins? I think your posting is also unbliblical and you seem to make the death of Christ to be unecessary since you are creating alternative ways to save sinners.

Well, 2nd, it is clear that you have entirely misunderstood all my postings on this matter, however, I don’t think it is germaine to the topic, so I am willing to drop it for now. I will file it under that fat file of Catholic soteriology that you do not understand, and misconstrue.

 

[MGLechner]

This is what I honestly believe:

Christianity is a 100% works based righteousness.

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/cross-at-sunrise-steven-rice.jpg

Then you sir, are a Pelagian. And Pelagianism has been condemned by the Church as a Heresy! Neither the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans or Protestants (be they Arminian or Reformed) hold to this view.

 

[guanophore]

See Adam, you and I agree on certain things…the bolded text above.

However, you knew there was a however, I think you are coming to conclusion about what Guan is saying that simply aren’t there. I do not see him claiming that salvation comes from anyone, or anything, apart from Christ.

Thanks. I am glad the point was not lost on everyone.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You
so why is Christ compared with Adam, when the analogy does not fit? why was He nto compared to Noah, since He only died for a small remnant that will be saved? Why does scripture say everyone is saved through Him? - It doesn’t. Please read Romans 5 together with 1 Cor 15.

and when was Cornelius justified?- Acts 13:48 . Post the text and we can look at it together.

Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[2nd_Adam]

A Christian believes God meant what He said. What did He say? Romans 8 is as clear as it can get, but as you probably know, there are many places in Scripture that teach that God decides and by His sovereignty. I think we forget that we are the creation, not the creator.

We are the clay and He is the Potter. The Catholic clay likes to talk back to the potter.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Apostolic teaching

 

[guanophore]

Christians are called to proclaim Christ to themselves daily, and to proclaim Christ to their fellow Christians. The gospel is for everyday living for the Christian. It is much more than simply entrance into the kingdom of God. We are to preach the gospel to ourselves each and every day. The Apostles preached Christ and Him crucified to the church! If you are not preaching the gospel to yourselves daily, then how can you walk by faith?

2nd, you seem to think that, because I have some different goals for my participation on CAF than you do, that I am failing to live the Christian life.

I don’t find a need to proclaim Christ to you.

I do find a need to attempt to correct your multiple errors about Catholic theology.

If you are looking for a preacher to helpyou in your faith, I am sure that you will find an adequate one in your local ecclesial community.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1;16-17

Are you trying to imply that I am ashamed of the Gospel?

1 Corinthians 15

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

I am surprised you would quote this verse, since the Apostle here states that it is possible to “believe in vain” by not holding fast (failing to persevere).
2nd Adam;6002514:

9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

An activity about which Jesus said “Why are you persecuting ME”?

This is why we say that Jesus is One with His Body, the Church!

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, you seem to think that, because I have some different goals for my participation on CAF than you do, that I am failing to live the Christian life.

I don’t find a need to proclaim Christ to you.

I do find a need to attempt to correct your multiple errors about Catholic theology.

If you are looking for a preacher to helpyou in your faith, I am sure that you will find an adequate one in your local ecclesial community.

Are you trying to imply that I am ashamed of the Gospel?

I am surprised you would quote this verse, since the Apostle here states that it is possible to “believe in vain” by not holding fast (failing to persevere).

An activity about which Jesus said “Why are you persecuting ME”?

This is why we say that Jesus is One with His Body, the Church!

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[guanophore]

How are you so sure that baptism is referring to the outward symbol as opposed to the baptismal regeneration of the Holy Spirit? Because that is in fact what the outward symbol is, it is a symbol.

Because we have received the Teaching of the Apostles, and preserved them as we were commanded to do.

The Apsotles believed and taught that, when Jesus entered the baptismal waters, He joined the HS to them. From that time, baptism in the name of Jesus included supernatural action upon the candidate by the HS. Baptism is symbolic, but that does not mean that spiritual events are not taking place. It is symbolic of being buried with Christ in His death, and raised with Him in resurrection.

Another symbol is the serpent that Moses placed on a pole. It was an efficacious symbol of grace, in that all those who looked upon it were healed of their sickness. It was a prefigurement of Christ on the cross.

the Passover Lamb was also a symbol, yet, those who did not apply the actual blood to their doors were not spared. Catholics call these sacramental symbols, because they effect that which they symbolize.

Many who were baptized, and constantly attended the ordinances, have remained without Christ, died in their sins, and are now past recovery.

Yes, although baptism is salvific, those who do not live according to the life afforded to them by Christ will fail to be united with their heavenly inheritance. Among them are those Jesus talked about in the parable of the soils/seeds.

We shouldn’t rest until we are cleansed by the Spirit of Christ and the blood of Christ. His resurrection from the dead is how we are assured of purifying and peace.

I am not sure what you mean about “we shouldn’t rest until…”

it is entering into Him in baptism that we enter into the Sabbath rest of God.