"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[guanophore]

I will continue to proclaim the bridegroom and you will continue to proclaim the bride.

And since they are inseparable, people will end up in the same place!

 

[guanophore]

Hi Tweetymom,

I am rejoicing with you that God has granted to you to suffer for Christ’s sake. What a great privilege that you have been blessed with!

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29

You are mistaken, 2nd. Tweety is suffering because her feelings are hurt. She was confronted about misrepresenting herself as a Catholic. It has been observed that she has become a stumbling block on CAF, putting forth that “cafeteria Catholicism” is an acceptable position for a Catholic, and that one is not failing in their Catholicity when they deny the doctrines of the faith.

None of these things gives any glory to God, nor is it suffering on His behalf. It is a suffering that was self imposed through claiming to espouse a faith that she does not.

 

[guanophore]

How can you find life in Christ without being a Christian?

It is a very worthy question, but I think it is beyond the scope of the thread. I think Cornelius is much more relevant. I will put this issue to the side, so we can focus better on the topic.

 

[guanophore]

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God because we are all made in the image of fallen Adam, including Mary who rejoiced in God Her savior because she knew that she was a sinner. Original sin is real.

You seem to be invested in changing the subject, 2nd. Mary rejoiced because she was saved. Let’s not add to scripture, shall we?

How do you account for the parents of John the Baptist?

Luk 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all commandments of the Lord

How can this statement be true, and also your statement that it is impossible to keep the Law?

How is the Image of fallen Adam different from the Image of God?

 

[guanophore]

I’ll be a Calvinist catholic, and you can be a Catholic Calvinist!

No, thanks, 2nd. I will follow the instructions of my Apostles with regared to Calvanism:

1Th 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.

 

[guanophore]

Do you not understand what sets the Christian apart from all others? The Christian is a “New Creation” IN CHRIST JESUS. So if someone decides to live in a continuous and unabated path of sin; is that person a “New Creation” IN CHRIST JESUS?

Yes. I certainly agree that a person who returns to a life of sin does not reflect the life of the New Creation.

 I don't understand how Catholics believe they can loose their salvation

Truthfully, I have never understood this either. It seems clear from the Scriptures that our salvation is not completed in this life. It begins when we are justified by grace, through faith, and during this life we work our our salvation, and we look forward with confident hope to being unitied with our inheritence in heaven.

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

The Apostle clearly demonstrates that it is “mature” not to consider that we have already “obtained” or “attained”. We are to look forward, and hold fast. This mature attitude seems inconsistent with “losing salvation” How can you lose that which you have not yet obtained?

 

[guanophore]

Then you sir, are a Pelagian. And Pelagianism has been condemned by the Church as a Heresy! Neither the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans or Protestants (be they Arminian or Reformed) hold to this view.

He is just baiting you MGL. He is obfuscating to avoid my questions. He means that salvation is based 100% on the work of Jesus on the cross, is all.

 

[2nd_Adam]

More family fun over here!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=402442

 

[guanophore]

You did not answer the question, 2nd. Why did the Apostle use the wrong analogy? Why did He compare Christ to Adam instead of Noah? If God did not intend to make His sacrifice effective for the whole world, and only for the elect, wouldn’t Noah have been a better example?

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why does the Apostle say such things, when He knows it is not true?

Other questions you have not answered:

when was Cornelius justified?

How do you reconcile your assertion that no one can follow the Law with what the Scriptures say about the parents of John the Baptist?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by MGLechner
Then you sir, are a Pelagian. And Pelagianism has been condemned by the Church as a Heresy! Neither the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans or Protestants (be they Arminian or Reformed) hold to this view.

A Pelagian Calvinist? What view do I have to warrant such a label of being a Pelagian?

 

[guanophore]

We are the clay and He is the Potter. The Catholic clay likes to talk back to the potter.

It seems to me that I am beginning to notice a pattern. When you cannot answer the questions put to you, you start making personal attacks and condescending remarks.

I find this remark quite prejudicial. I think that Protestants on this site have a valid complaint against Catholics who lump everyone together and make disparaging remarks across the board for whole groups of people. It is a form of bigotry.

Perhaps you do not know any Catholics that are soft putty in the hands of God. I hope and pray that God will bring these people into your life, so that you can be healed of this bigotry.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It seems to me that I am beginning to notice a pattern. When you cannot answer the questions put to you, you start making personal attacks and condescending remarks.

I find this remark quite prejudicial. I think that Protestants on this site have a valid complaint against Catholics who lump everyone together and make disparaging remarks across the board for whole groups of people. It is a form of bigotry.

Perhaps you do not know any Catholics that are soft putty in the hands of God. I hope and pray that God will bring these people into your life, so that you can be healed of this bigotry.

I think 2nd Adam was trying to say is those that try to tell God what is just and unjust with regards to election are talking back to the potter.

 

[izoid]

I have found that the Catholic Church allows a wide range of views on issues related to election and predestination. I believe a Calvinistic Catholic would lean toward an Augustinian and Thomist view in regards to predestination, free will, and election. There is no such thing as a Calvinist Catholic, it is your attempt to be offensive.

Here’s a good place to start. However, I think Catholics tend misrepresent Calvinism as a whole, and actually think hyper-Calvinism is true Calvinism which it’s not. Hyper Calvinist are more Calvinist than Catholics are. You present an interesting dichotomy in your views on who is and who isn’t a Calvinist?

 

[izoid]

The sin that leads to death is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is a description of an apostate. Nothing to do with mortal sins as you have been taught to understand, but since you are told what you must believe then this is less than 2 cents worth.

Based on you interpretation of James, please reconcile that to Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 for me…thank you.

Can you provide me with Biblical verses to support your teaching here? We don’t want to blindly believe “what we are told”.

 

[izoid]

Actually, I am not at all sure that 2nd believes in evangelism. He believes that God has predestined who He wants to save before the beginning of time. He believes that God’s grace will find, justify, sanctify, and glorify them. God’s grace will do this without fail, and therefore, there is really no need for 2nd to “win souls”. He is just trying to identify who his siblings in Christ already are, so that he can fan the flame of their love for God.

This is a very good explanation of what Calvinists think in regards to evangelism. They do evangelize however, they can not get away from the fact that God commanded it. It is usually simply in obedience and the results are not as important to them due to the factors that you stated.

 

[izoid]

We are the clay and He is the Potter. The Catholic clay likes to talk back to the potter.

And the Calvinist clay likes to reject their Mother.

 

[izoid]

It seems to me that I am beginning to notice a pattern. When you cannot answer the questions put to you, you start making personal attacks and condescending remarks.

I find this remark quite prejudicial. I think that Protestants on this site have a valid complaint against Catholics who lump everyone together and make disparaging remarks across the board for whole groups of people. It is a form of bigotry.

Perhaps you do not know any Catholics that are soft putty in the hands of God. I hope and pray that God will bring these people into your life, so that you can be healed of this bigotry.

I think we are all starting to see this pattern of behavior in Adam. Be careful in pointing this out as his personal attacks will get more virulent, he may even claim that you are not really a Catholic.

I do agree with you that we all tend to make judgements based upon association. I certainly have this tendency and it is not right. I must say, however, that some people tend to be a perfect reflection of the stereotype that was assigned to them. Having been members in a Calvinist, quite possibly a hyper Calvinist, church I can say with confidence; “the egg does not fall far from the tree”!

 

[izoid]

I asked this earlier in the thread but have not gotten an answer:

1. What is God’s grace sufficient for?
2. For whom is it sufficient?
3. Is it sufficient for the non elect , if so, what is it sufficient for?

 

[zerinus]

I believe the gospel will be preached to All God’s elect, and in His timing, the Elect will receive the truth of the gospel. We have no idea if someone is an elect until you proclaim the gospel to that person. And even if that person rejects the truth, it does not mean later in life that he won’t receive it.

There is such a thing as the “elect”:

D&C 29:

7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;

But they are not the elect because they were predestined to be the elect; but because God knew in His foreknowledge that they would not “harden their hearts”.

I think you are emtering dangerous grounds to give people hope apart from faith in Jesus Christ as proclaimed in the gospel. You cannot change the great good news of God as accountable bad news, because all are condemned prior to hearing the gospel. Christ came to save and rescue His people from their sins.

The “good news,” the “hope,” the “rescue His people from their sins” are all contingent on faith and repentance. Faith alone will not “rescue” anyone.

No, I do not believe the Islamic Religion saves sinners. They don’t even believe that Christ was crucified for their sins. If Muslims are saved through Islam, who will pay for their sins? I think your posting is also unbliblical and you seem to make the death of Christ to be unecessary since you are creating alternative ways to save sinners.

God will judge all mankind according to their works. That is taught all over the Bible. That includes non-Christians as well as Christians:

1 Peter 1:

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

Revelation 20:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Those who have not known the gospel or have ignorantly sinned will not be condemned. But those who have heard the gospel message preached by the power of the Holy Ghost, and willfully rebelled against it (and that includes the mesaage of the Restored gospel) will be condemned:

Mosiah 3:

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.
12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let me see: you are now going to tell me that you are not going to take any notice of that because it comes from Mormons scriptures—as if I cared!

 

[zerinus]

I will continue to proclaim the bridegroom and you will continue to proclaim the bride.

But I don’t think the “bridegroom” acknowledges you, not authorizes you to “proclaims” Him.