"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[guanophore]

Who prepares the heart to be able to receive and believe the Word?

I believe it is God, but I also believe that there are things that people can do, moved by the grace of God, to be more receptive to God. Saul of Tarsus spent his whole lifetime zealously learning and practicing his faith. When he was finally able to receive and believe Him, all the study he had done fell into place. God used him mightily. His preparation was unlike that of any of the other Apostles.

When is the person actually justified? Before or after receiving the Holy Spirit (NT)? Hopefully by answering those questions it; you will have answered you own question.

One is justified when one is born from above by water, and Spirit. I am sorry, this did not answer my question. Are you saying that Cornelius was approved by God prior to being regenerated?

Ok, so here is my question. If the heart is turned against God until a person is regenerated, does that mean the worship of Cornelius prior to that time was as “filthy rags”?

Before or after Vatican II?

I am not sure I understand your question. Do you mean, did the HS use Protestant ecclesial communities to draw people unto Himself prior to Vat II?

Guan,

Read chapter 11 of Hebrews and soak in the faith of each, but when you get to the last verse of chapter 11; you will need to read 3-4 times to really get what is being said; it is quite astonishing, but it is because the OT saints and di not receive what was promised. Why? Because God had not instituted the New Covenant yet. Take a look at it; it is very interesting.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. So, would you say that Cornelius was under the “Old Covenant”, and therefore, could please God in faith before he was regenerated?

I am still stuck on this point. If man is unable to please God prior to regeneration, and regeneration did not exist yet, then how did all those in Heb. 11 please God by living lives of faith? Shouldnt’ that be impossible, since they were made in the image of “fallen” Adam, and the 2nd Adam had not yet come?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

What difference does Vatican II make?

The CC’s doctrines and dogmas are the same before/during/after Vatican II.

Before you were damned if not part of the Catholic Church, now you are considered “Separated Brethren”; completely different doctrines. Ironically the former is from many councils and Bulls, the primary council was Trent; yet Trent was confirmed in whole by Vatican II council. Seems like a little contradiction there. But that is for you Catholics to iron out.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The by your explanation the HS tells each person who personally interprets the gospels something different because that is what they come away with and is why there are so many different beliefs in various churches today. The bible states the church is to help you interpret the gospel so if you can figure out which church has existed since the time of the Apostles then you will know who Jesus sent the HS too to help his people know the gospels.

You are wrong on the what the Bible says about interpretation; it explicitly states in quite a few places that the Holy Spirit who resides in each believer will lead to all truth concerning the things of God. The church is the pillar and SUPPORT of that truth, but what is the church? The individual believers that have the Holy Spirit as their teacher and guide. The only reason you will see so many differences, major ones, minors ones will always exist among believers, but the major ones, which are many, are a result of people that make a profession, but the faith is not real because God did not prepare the heart. This is clearly demonstrated by Jesus with the parable of the soils in Mark 4 (I believe that is where it is) and the parable of the wheat and the tares is another good example.

Matthew 7 clearly teaches that many more professors than there are true believers. How can anyone know who is and who isn’t within themselves even? The Bible says the Holy Spirit will give testimony to ones spirit; this I have personally found to be true, which is as it should be since this is how God said believers will know.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I am having the same difficulty. I cannot reconcile this teaching with the Scriptural evidence. The reason I wanted to explore the case of Cornelius is because it seems like it doesn’t fit. If the human heart is turned against God, and does not seek HIm, what was Cornelius doing before he was born again? Earlier in the thread, all of my Reformed brethren agreed that he was born again when he heard the Gospel from Peter. so how is it that he sought God prior to that? How does Calvin explain this passage?

Look at the bigger picture as mentioned to you in some other recent post. He probably heard all the stories the Jews told and believed them for whatever reason, but the bigger picture is that Jesus planned to use this person, along with Peter and his Jewish converts to make a point to the Jewish converts that God saves the gentiles in exactly the same way He does the Jews.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The succession is very important; it is the determining factor of the true church which is in accordance with the original teachings of the apostles given to them by Christ Himself.

Please refer to post #1255.

You cannot demonstrate that claim from God. God sent messengers to make disciples to all the world; how is that accomplished? By the message or the messenger? The message by the messenger. If the message is the same coming from a Methodist preacher, a baptist preacher or a Lutheran preacher, then the message is going forth.

The parable of the soils, it doesn’t depend on the sower, it depends on the “seed”, the Word of God and the “soil” the heart prepared by God, which is the 4th soil only. Same principle. God did not restrict the gospel to your church only did He?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Not trying to slander anyone, but I am trying to understand how Calvinism can explain these beliefs of theirs. So if God created man which you and Calvin said He is the creator of all things. And then you say man is nothing but evil from the very beginning since the fall and only God can make him good. You are then saying based on the above statements the conclusion must be that God made man evil. Please explain this as I do not see anyway out of the conclusion if the above statement are what you believe.

Let me comment, God did not “create” evil, but He allowed evil to exist according to His purpose. Good thing He did, otherwise we would not know the difference between good and evil, love and hate, etc.; then we would be like the Cyborg, all like robots.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The state of separation among protestantism proves the fallacy of Sola Scriptura.

You could also say, that the separation we see in protestantism is due to it always being under attack by the evil one because it is holds true the message of the Gospel and it is they that are evangelizing the world.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Indeed you are an artful dodger and master of obfuscation. Your response has nothing to do with the question. You do not have an adequate answer to the question, so you change the subject.

The state of separation among protestantism proves the fallacy of Sola Scriptura.

Very simple… Did Cornelius please God while being in the flesh, causing God to save him? Or was Cornelius under the wrath of God for his sins? Did Cornelius need Jesus Christ for reconciliation with God? Was Cornelius united to Adam or the 2nd Adam prior to hearing the gospel from Peter? Cornelius like all humanity, had a great need of Jesus Christ to be reconciled to God. There is no hope apart from being united to Christ through faith. Stay within the Scriptures under the essential theme of Christ and Him crucified for sinners, and you will find your way Guan. Otherwise, you appear to give sinners hope from apart from faith in Christ. Therefore, that kind of thinking makes Jesus to have died in vain. You sure seem to believe the Muslims and Jews can be saved apart from hearing the gospel, receiving the gospel and being united to Christ by faith. Christ is the only way my brother! If you go through Acts 10 through 11, you will see that Cornelius was God’s chosen instrument to convey an important message to Apostle Peter and the rest of the church. Cornelius was an elect of God, in which regeneraton comes before faith. Cornelius was a representation of the elect gentiles.

Romans 8

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. - Rom 8

 

[guanophore]

this come primarily from Romans 6, near the beginning, read and you will see. It is an identification with His death , burial and resurrection.

I will agree that the external form is also symbolic of these events, but they are primarily spiritual. The modern evangelical notion of baptism as a “public declaration of what has already happened inwardly” is unknown to the Apostles and the early church.

Do a word search on "gift" in the NT; that should help.

For some reason you seem to assume that I have not done these kind of studies for years, in English, Greek, and Hebrew. No, it does not help.

IQUOTE=guanophore] In fact, there is quite a bit of language in the NT that is conditional (if you do this, then I will do that). The presence of conditions does not mean it is any less grace. If it was 'all of God", then why would there be any conditional statements at all?

How do the conditions make it less of a gift?

 Probably used mud to make some point to His disciples or perhaps to show He is personal; I really do not know, but the thought occurred to me that perhaps this has something to do with things done in Jesus day perhaps.

Would you agree that the obligation to follow His instructions, to wash in the pool, does not make the healing less of a gift?

I’m not sure your analogy is wrong; if they were offered the gift and refused to take it, then they made that choice. Honestly, the free-will paradox is one of the most difficult things to understand for me. I know they are both true, but exactly how God works that out I cannot fully comprehend and probably won’t, but I do know He says He desires all men to be saved.

Well, we are in the same boat on that one. I see why the Apostles called them “mysteries:”

 If He had refused, then He would he would not have been healed, but again you must look at the whole picture of this man.  God used him as a testimony and rebuke to the pharisees.   He also used it as an example to His disciples.  Whenever you see these things or events that seem a little extraordinary, then it is a clue to really examine the bigger picture.

I agree. However, the parts are also important. Maybe He was testing the man’s faith? Maybe He was trying to show him that grace and healing would flow through obedience? In any case, his healing was no less of a gift as far as I can tell.

There is a single source of grace; that is God and not any object.

I agree. But He has also made His grace to flow through innumable objects and people.

This was the point I was trying to make about Elijah’s bones earlier in the thread.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Acts 10-11

Peter and Cornelius

10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day [1] he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” 7 When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, 8 and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.
**
Peter’s Vision**

9 The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour [2] to pray. 10 And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

17 Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon’s house, stood at the gate 18 and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21 And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22 And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23 So he invited them in to be his guests.

The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

30 And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, [3] and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Gentiles Hear the Good News

34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Peter Reports to the Church

11:1 Now the apostles and the brothers [4] who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in order: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. 6 Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ 10 This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. 11 And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. 12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The Sacred Traditions that were preserved by the Church according to the Apostolic instruction.

Now you are getting into some real issues; what are the sacred traditions or teachings preserved by the church that are not written in Scripture and how do you know? You can’t answer that question, but I will tell you the answer. The oral traditions, by mouth and the written, by letter, as Paul put it are the same message…isn’t that a light bulb going off? He stated the oral traditions already existed and he and the others were teaching the same gospel message by mouth and by letter; easy to drawl the conclusion they are one in the same. There is no way to prove otherwise.

Sure!

And those who only have part of the Gospel preach the part they have.

Should we take that to another thread?

The Scripture is the whole of Gods revelation to man beside creation; are you telling me your church has extra revelation from God? If so, what is it?

It is not about cliques. It is about being connected to the Body in the manner Jesus set things up. He never intended for the Scripture to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it.

Another serious issue, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God” Hope you can reconcile that with your statement above.

The problem is that none of our separated brethren “preaches the same gospel as int he Bible”. however, if they did, you would be right.
I have chosen to believe all that the Catholic Church teaches. I don’t claim to understand it all, but my faith is seeking understanding.

You demonstrate faith. What is that gospel in the Bible you refer to in your own understanding?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Commits not sin… That is, as long as he keeps in himself this seed of grace, and this divine generation, by which he is born of God. But then he may fall from this happy state, by the abuse of his free will, as appears from Romans 11:20-22; 1 Corinthians 9:27 and 10:12; Philippians 2:12; Apocalypse 3:11. (CHALLONER)

<< 1 John 3 >>
King James Bible

---

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ** In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,** neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I believe it is God, but I also believe that there are things that people can do, moved by the grace of God, to be more receptive to God. Saul of Tarsus spent his whole lifetime zealously learning and practicing his faith. When he was finally able to receive and believe Him, all the study he had done fell into place. God used him mightily. His preparation was unlike that of any of the other Apostles.

One is justified when one is born from above by water, and Spirit. I am sorry, this did not answer my question. Are you saying that Cornelius was approved by God prior to being regenerated?

Ok, so here is my question. If the heart is turned against God until a person is regenerated, does that mean the worship of Cornelius prior to that time was as “filthy rags”?

I am not sure I understand your question. Do you mean, did the HS use Protestant ecclesial communities to draw people unto Himself prior to Vat II?

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. So, would you say that Cornelius was under the “Old Covenant”, and therefore, could please God in faith before he was regenerated?

I am still stuck on this point. If man is unable to please God prior to regeneration, and regeneration did not exist yet, then how did all those in Heb. 11 please God by living lives of faith? Shouldnt’ that be impossible, since they were made in the image of “fallen” Adam, and the 2nd Adam had not yet come?

God is outside of our time continuum; He granted the righteousness of Christ to those in the OT because of their faith just as He grants righteousness to those who have faith in Christ or God. The promise was withheld until the New Covenant (this is man’s way of looking at things because of time) whereas God already purposed Christ crucified and counted the OT saints as righteousness received. It is confusing because the Scripture speaks from amns perspective and God’s perspective. Just like we are justified, being santified and will be justified. Mans perspective because of time box we are in, but romans 8 is Gods perspective,For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom justified, He also glorified.

This is God’s perspective; already a done deal start to finish because He purposed it and anything He purposes come to be. This is why the world will basically implode when God removes “TIME” and recreates everything without time. Mind boggling and cool.

 

[guanophore]

Perhaps it is because you want to take part in salvation?

Most definitely!

I don’t know what to tell you except God prepared the heart, not man.

I will concede that man cannot participate in preparing himself for God without God’s grace. Are you saying that Cornelius did not do anything to prepare Himself to receive Christ?

Something new and exciting to a human, then fades away because something new and exciting takes its place…simple human attribute. Like going on food binges, sometimes I have to have chocolate once a day, then i get bored and something new catches my fancy, same human principle, that is why we know it is not from God.

You are assuming that it is not possible to begin to grow, then be cut off?

We know that Cornelius was aware of the doctrine of the Jews and had some light of the true God. He had faith in the Messiah to come, though not knowledge concerning the mystery in the person of Jesus Christ. Just like all the children of faith that died before him, those that renounced their own righteousness and instead by faith believed in a better promise, were those that were accepted by Him.

Hebrews 11:13
“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”

Ok.

So how is it these people were able to do this, if they are slaves to sin, and in bondage to the flesh, with hearts at emnity with God? If they cannot please God until they are transferred from the status of 1st Adam to the status of the 2nd Adam, how were they able to act in faith?

 

[guanophore]

I still don’t understand the Cornelius argument. Corneilus is similar to Abel, Noah, Job, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, David, the first Centurion, etc.

I agree. The part I don’t understand is how they were able to please God by faith when they were in the 1st Adam.

If you want to crush the T in Tulip, let’s see the history of mankind, starting with the 3rd human being born; thereafter, let’s discuss the world wide flood.

I think this is a good idea. Can you explain how the image of God in which Adam and Eve were created is different from the image of “fallen” Adam?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree. The part I don’t understand is how they were able to please God by faith when they were in the 1st Adam.

I think this is a good idea. Can you explain how the image of God in which Adam and Eve were created is different from the image of “fallen” Adam?

Please start a goodness of man verses a depravity of man thread, because your obession with Cornelius is derailing this thread. You miss the central purpose of Cornelius as being a representative of being an elect Gentile, in which was unheard of news for the Jewish Christian. Scripture needs to be looked at as a whole, systematically through the lenses of the gospel. Otherwise, you will stray from the centrailty of Christ and Him crucified, rescuing sinners from their condemned condition. You make Cornelius to have zero need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rocket_Man]

So how is it these people were able to do this, if they are slaves to sin, and in bondage to the flesh, with hearts at emnity with God? If they cannot please God until they are transferred from the status of 1st Adam to the status of the 2nd Adam, how were they able to act in faith?

1 Corinthians 15:9-10 (King James Version)

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[guanophore]

Traditions and rituals that are in accord with Scripture are very beneficial; I agree. The problem is when the ritual and tradition are outside the bounds of Scripture.

This standard makes absolutely no sense to us. The Traditions and rituals existed centuries before the Bible. How would they become dependent upon it?

 Scripture is always to be the litmus test to which everything else is measured.

Where does Scripture say this about itself?

It always amazes me when I run across these extrabiblical doctrines from supposed Sola Scripturists.

I would define legalism in the religious perspective as trying to achieve or merit a grace from God by performing a ritual or adhering to a tradition that by doing such adds God’s grace to oneself in the mind of the ritualist or legalist.

I think the history of God’s interaction with humanity easily demonstrates that this definition has no validity.

IOW, a person that performs some act of obedience according to their religion will gain unmerited favor with God because they performed such an act. It takes away the gift or unmerited favor of God and takes away from His glory and puts it on the man, even if in a small part.

It is a mystery how you come to such definitions. I don’t see how the situation you describe here differs at all from the man with the muddy eyes. He performed an act of obediencd to gain the unmerited favor of the healing of his blindness. I don’t see how that takes away from God’s glory at all.

Choice is not a work is it?

Indeed, the most important work of all is that choice to believe in Him.

the gospel is very simple; it is human wisdom and pride that perverts it in 30, 000 different ways.

You make a good point. I agree that the gospel is simple, and that everyone’s individual interpretations, based upon human wisdom and pride, perverts it. This is the reason Jesus needed to appoint an infallible Teaching Authority.

Before you were damned if not part of the Catholic Church, now you are considered “Separated Brethren”; completely different doctrines. Ironically the former is from many councils and Bulls, the primary council was Trent; yet Trent was confirmed in whole by Vatican II council. Seems like a little contradiction there. But that is for you Catholics to iron out.

Nothing has changed. There has never been any salvation outside the Church. This is the Apostolic Teaching that has been preserved. There is no contradiction in the church teaching. It may seem like one for those that do not understand it.

 

[guanophore]

If your issue of Cornelius is about Total Depravity, and man’s inability, then please start a thread on the goodness of man.

Yes. It relates to the nature and extent of “fallen” Adam. I think a thread on “the goodness of man”, however, would be misleading. Catholics and Calvanists are in agreement that man is unable to come to God apart from His grace.

However, I really think you are going down the Pelagius road with a Corenelius obessison.

Confirmation that a thread with such a title would be going in the wrong direction.

For Catholics, the goodness of man does not equate to Pelagianism, as it does for Calvanists.

I posted the Acts 10 through 11 account with Cornelius which refutes quite a bit of Catholic theology. If you still want to discuss Cornelius, let’s discuss Acts 10 through 11 in the proper context.

Good idea. Can you please show me where Catholic theology is refuted? Can you start by explaining how his worship was not “filthy rags”?