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"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.
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tweetymom
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Once again thank you. I am Catholic just do not agree with all that is taught. So have a great Thanksgiving.You are most welcome my dear sister in Christ! I wish I could cut you away from your masquerade, but alas, only you can do that. No, I am no “perfect one”, but I can tell you this, I have years of experience masquerading as something I am not, so I see myself in you daily.
If you are referring to my comments that you claim to be Catholic while rejecting the Catholic faith, that is not a condescension, but an observation. You may not realize this, but I sojoured among my separated brethren like you did for 20+ years, and had some very solid faith foundation. I have no condescension toward them at all, as I know many Prostestants that are better Christians than those who claim to know Christ in the Catholic Church. 2nd has made an accurate point, that it is not what you claim to know, but who knows you.
It is not my desire to insult you, and if I have done so, I apologize. I will not retract my observation, however.
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tweetymom
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guanophore
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Your story very closely parallels my own. Thank you for sharing it.
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2nd_Adam
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2nd_Adam
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I think Scripture can answer your question with authority. However, I think you have to settle on the biblical answer yourself. The sovereignity of God is found throughout all of Scripture. God could not be God if His will was not done. The God in the Bible is not a weak and anemic God in which man’s fee will can overpower God’s sovereign will. Maybe we should start a thread on the attributes of God according to Scripture revelation alone?
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guanophore
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Izoid misunderstood 2nd’s question. 2nd. is talking about the work of Christ on the cross, and imputed righteousness that comes to us based 100% upon His sacrifice on our behalf . We are declared righteous based upon what they call “alien” righteousness (not coming from ourselves, but outside of ourselves).
It is part of 2nd’s games he likes to play to rope us into discussions, and draw us toward the TULIP.
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guanophore
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Of course you care, or you would not be reading and responding.
No one gets upset about things that don’t matter. If a person has a strong emotional reaction, it is because they “care” enough about it to feel something. Since you have said you are “more than insulted”, that indicates that you care a great deal. Your protest of that is not working on us, and I don’t think it works on you either.
As far as your assertion that you are not “Catholic just because I don’t agree with all the laws”, this is a fallacy. You are only fooling yourself with this also. You are correct that canon laws and disciplines can change over time, but your objections are not confined to these. You are in disagreement and disobedience on matters of major doctrine that has come to us from the Apostles. That is a whole 'nother level of “protest” than “laws”.
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izoid
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If you read my post #136 you will see my explanation to the trick question.
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izoid
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2nd_Adam
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Cr8ton
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I know this is a false statement based on my life. I have never been baptized and still have received spiritual enlightenment and know my Lord and Savior deeply and personally
I do plan to get baptized soon out of obedience to Christ but not because my salvation is at stake. The Holy Spirit lives in me and cries out Abba Father. We’re so blessed to have a loving God that grants us salvation when we believe and receive Him.
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guanophore
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No, Tweety does not see how Adam is attempting to confuse and distort. She is quite enamored of him, and may not be able to take into consciousness that he would behave in such a manner.
She is also as Protestant in her soteriology as he is, so she does not recognize any distortion here.
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guanophore
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A person who is Catholic, Tweety, agrees with Catholic doctrine. You have stated that you do not, therefore, your faith is not Catholic. You may wish to believe you can be Catholic and reject the teaching of the Church, but this is not the case. You have become a Protestant, though you don’t appear to realize it. A Protestant is a person who does not agree with what the Catholic Church teaches.
There is no disrespect in being a Protestant. I am convinced you are a better Protestant Christian than most Catholics.
What is disrespectful is to claim that you embrace something that you do not.
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izoid
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And that my friends is the protestant life. It is all about what the INDIVIDUAL reads, sees and feels. This is not the picture of the Church in the Bible. The Biblical picture of the church is not of individual experience but as unity, unity on par of that of Jesus ad the Father. See John 17.I know this is a false statement based on my life. I have never been baptized and still have received spiritual enlightenment and know my Lord and Savior deeply and personally
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Rocket_Man
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Jesus has found another one of His lost sheep. Praise be to Him alone.I know this is a false statement based on my life. I have never been baptized and still have received spiritual enlightenment and know my Lord and Savior deeply and personally
I do plan to get baptized soon out of obedience to Christ but not because my salvation is at stake. The Holy Spirit lives in me and cries out Abba Father. We’re so blessed to have a loving God that grants us salvation when we believe and receive Him.
"So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
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2nd_Adam
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This is what I believe Scripture teaches in regards to baptism. There is a baptism done by the Spirit of Christ which unites us to Christ through the instrument of faith upon hearing and receiving the gospel. And there is an outward baptism done by men as a testimony and witness to what God has done for us in the Spirit. Therefore, there are many who have the outward baptism we call the sacrament of baptism, but not have been baptized by the Spirit of God which united them to Christ. It is very similar to the OT Church in which many boasted in their outward circumcision, but have not been circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. That truth was clearly taught by Jesus and Paul throughout the New Testament.
For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2
Alive in Christ
Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
- Col 3
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” - John 8
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2nd_Adam
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Guan,
I believe your view is just plain wrong. Who are you to tell any member of the Catholic Church that they are not Catholic? You have no authority to make such a statement. Do you go around you local parish and try to determine who is truly Catholic? It sure seems you have the equivalent view of Arminian Protestant’s version of fruit inspector. It sure seems that all who continue to disrespect Tweetymom our 71 year old greatgrandmother Catholic Christian will continue to lose credibility with all who read these posts. By your logic Guan, there might be 1/2 billion Protestants in the Catholic Church who think they are Catholic.
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izoid
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I believe it is you that is wrong Adam. Tweety’s views are not Catholic views. It is clear to anyone who reads what she believes. She may be a practicing Catholic but her theology and moral views are not in alignment with the Church. In my opinion, she is very harmful to those who come to these boards to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. He views are not those of the Church in which she worships.
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guanophore
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I understand that you believe this, however, it is not consistent with the Scriptural account. The Aposltes taught that there is ONE BAPTISM, and that the Spirit is not separated from the water. Futhermore, the early Church was persecuted,a nd they did baptism in secret so as not to have the converts carried off to martyrdom immediately. Those in the Church did not require any "testimony and witness’ from the candidate. On the contrary, they were there to be a witness for him!
In Scripture, there is no such thing as “an outward baptism done by men”.
This is a modern innovation that comes from an anti-Sacramental view of the faith.
Are you trying to say that Catholics belong to the devil, because we believe in baptismal regeneration?
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