"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[2nd_Adam]

the Catholic Church does teach we’re saved by grace…

it teaches (and always taught) that we’re saved by grace, but we have to cooperate with this grace or else we’re rejecting it. (if we reject then then we can’t be saved)

what the Church opposes is not “grace alone” but “faith alone”… because faith alone is dead… faith must be expressed somehow, in works of love for God

I can agree with your understanding. I think most Protestants would agree too. Faith alone which does not manifest in good works is dead (James 2). Woud you agree with this statement:

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

 

[2nd_Adam]

Did you see posts 69 and 71?

I think I know where Adam is going with 100% works righteousness bit and it all goes back to TULIP…

Since the Fall, we were depraved and had no choice but to sin; it was our sin nature. In the OT, God gave us the Law. In the Law, if you missed one commandment you failed them all. God gave us the Law to show us we couldn’t do good works to save ourselves–we needed His Son to do what we couldn’t do. Hence Calvinists believe that justification is 100% works righteousness–not of ourselves but Christ’s. Now that we are declared the elect and have a new nature within us, God will work through us since no matter what we do will be filth to him hence the either/or questions of works vs. grace.

However, this is based on many assumptions which Adam has skirted around and has not answered. You asked Roman Catholic earlier, if it’s either yes/no with grace or works, I say yes grace and yes works.

Actually, that last sentence was my understanding of Calvinism. From what I understand by listening to Sproul, MacArthur, and others, if we are totally depraved then no matter what we do will be filth to God–we are not perfect as Christ is perfect. However, once we are “saved” we have a new nature–a new Adam–and working with that and God working within us, we display our true elected-ness. Hence why I think 2ndAdam believes justification to be monogerism and santification to be syngeristic.

However, this is based on many assumptions which Adam has skirted around and has not answered. You asked Roman Catholic earlier, if it’s either yes/no with grace or works, I say yes grace and yes works

I think I posted earlier today that Christianity is a 100% works righteous system of salvation. There is no free lunch.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

Mind showing me the actual link where this quote is taken form?

 

[Rocket_Man]

If you fail to pursue the things of God that is your fault, not Gods.

I take full responsibilty for my sin. But I tell the truth, there was no enlightenment through the baptism that I know of. Everything was foggy, I did not percieve it. Even Confirmation and Communion did not open my eyes. I did not comprehend anything spiritual. All was a system of rituals that I was placed in because my parents were Catholic. I was practicing these rituals because that’s what we did, not that they had meaning.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Mind showing me the actual link where this quote is taken form?

Sure, please go to the middle of the page under “Monthy Focus”.

monergism.com/

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I think I posted earlier today that Christianity is a 100% works righteous system of salvation. There is no free lunch.

And you responded by reiterating your point; no comment about how I’ve understood this correctly or what you think—this is my response to your original comment, Adam.

 

[2nd_Adam]

And you responded by reiterating your point; no comment about how I’ve understood this correctly or what you think—this is my response to your original comment, Adam.

Do you agree with me that Christianity is a 100% works righteous system of salvation, and there is no free lunch? Why or why not?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Do you agree with me that Christianity is a 100% works righteous system of salvation, and there is no free lunch? Why or why not?

That’s not what I asked, Adam, you are re-stating the question that I responded to the first time. No answered questions until you answer mine–that’s what debate and discussion are. Now, is what I said correct? Is this what you believe in post 69 and 71? If yes, how and why do you think we Catholics are insufficient in grace?

I also looked up that link; it doesn’t say where this James White quote is actually from. Do you know where the actual quote is from–book, link or whatever? I’m curious about what Mr. White thinks Trent was actually about. I suspect its from his book Roman Catholic Controversy.…

 

[2nd_Adam]

That’s not what I asked, Adam, you are re-stating the question that I responded to the first time. No answered questions until you answer mine–that’s what debate and discussion are. Now, is what I said correct? Is this what you believe in post 69 and 71? If yes, how and why do you think we Catholics are insufficient in grace?

I also looked up that link; it doesn’t say where this James White quote is actually from. Do you know where the actual quote is from–book, link or whatever? I’m curious about what Mr. White thinks Trent was actually about. I suspect its from his book Roman Catholic Controversy.…

I think what you posted is correct and incorrect at the same time.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I think what you posted is correct and incorrect at the same time.

You are begging the question again. Please answer the other one as well. Remember you don’t want to make an Ewok unhappy, just ask a Stormtrooper…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are begging the question again. Please answer the other one as well. Remember you don’t want to make an Ewok unhappy, just ask a Stormtrooper…

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/38/Wicket_headshot.jpg

LOL… I have to take a break and lift weights with my middle son.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I was baptized Catholic. I wasn’t enlightened in my understanding, at least for the first 29 years of my life. So I don’t really think I can support this claim.

LOL! You were marked for Christ and claimed by Christ as an infant, yes? So all your enlightenment came as a result of this baptism–that is, all understanding you have now is a gift made by the indelible mark of your baptism as an infant.

In other words, there’s no other way for you to know what you would have known if you had never been baptized, Rocket. The light you radiate now is a result of the baptism you received as an infant.

Incidentally, you really ought not associate emotional feelings with the truth of God’s love for you.

Could you explain “justification” and “works” within the candle analogy?

Sure. [SIGN]Salvation comes from God alone. [/SIGN] Our justification and the efficacy of our works are possible only through the light of ONE candle–Christ has enkindled in us the fire of His love, through baptism.

Do you have any Scripture verses for your two candle analogy, Rocket?

 

[guanophore]

While standing in front of Him, if He asked you the reason(s) why you should enter the door into His kingdom, what would be your reply?

For the sake of His sorrowful suffering, have mercy on me.

 

[benidict]

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us".

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

:banghead: Did you actually read this? He’s talking about the false doctrine of saved by works alone, which the Catholic Church very much rejects. This doesn’t mean saved by faith alone is correct.

For the 5 billionth time, it’s save by grace alone, with the necessary response of faith working through love. No one here has ever said, at least in any post I’ve read that we are saved by works alone!!! That doesnt’ mean we aren’t judged on the merits of our works, which is deomonstrated very clearly in the bible. The thing is, with out Faith you essentially don’t get a trail, you get Judged based upon your outright rejection of God to begin with. If you have the faith, then terrific!! You get a trail! Then God Judges you, based upon the merits of your works, and not the merits of your faith, which is where protestants have gone all wrong.what years did you go to calvin college? my sister graduated from there.

 

[Rocket_Man]

LOL! You were marked for Christ and claimed by Christ as an infant, yes? So all your enlightenment came as a result of this baptism–that is, all understanding you have now is a gift made by the indelible mark of your baptism as an infant.

In other words, there’s no other way for you to know what you would have known if you had never been baptized, Rocket. The light you radiate now is a result of the baptism you received as an infant.

Incidentally, you really ought not associate emotional feelings with the truth of God’s love for you.

Sure. [SIGN]Salvation comes from God alone. [/SIGN] Our justification and the efficacy of our works are possible only through the light of ONE candle–Christ has enkindled in us the fire of His love, through baptism.

Do you have any Scripture verses for your two candle analogy, Rocket?

There are many people who know what I know that did not have the Catholic Baptism. I am working around them everyday. So I can’t necessarily agree with you that my enlightenment is from my baptism.

I also recieved the Sacraments of Confirmation and the Eucharist. Neither of these enlightened me spiritually in anyway.

I was baptized in the Catholic Church because my parents were Catholic. I went through the all the rituals of being good Catholic. But motions without meaning were all they were to me. I was not reborn of the spirit.

My whole family was raised in Catholic Schools and in the Catholic Church. Six of my seven siblings including my parents have left the Catholic Church and have discovered Jesus Christ outside of the CC. The seventh sibling is not interested in God. All of them share the same rememberance of the Catholic faith as I do. It was all going through the motions, no spirituallity, and no revelation of Jesus Christ.

I would go to confession and make up stuff to tell the priest just because. He would tell me to say something like two Hail Mary’s and two Our Father’s. It was the same routine time and time again. The only thing that would change is the number of times I had to say the same prayers.

Every Sunday I would go to Mass and stand in line for my turn to take communion. But still no enlightenment! I never knew that Jesus Christ was Savior and Lord with my heart, rather I just heard He was with my ears.

I was an alter boy for many services. I served many funerals, weddings, etc. (My mom at the time always wanted me to be a priest so I think she put my name on the list.)

The favorite times I can remember is when the new monthly epistle would come out. I couldn’t wait to read weeks ahead the first, second, and gospel readings while the priest was up there giving another empty message. You never went home uplifted and encouraged in the faith.

My brother went to the rectory to meet with the priest. My brother had a bible with him so he could ask the priest why catholics believed a certain way. The priest told him “GET THAT BIBLE AWAY FROM ME”.

So, the CC can claim all she wants. But my life expierences and those that I know closer who love me dearly, my family, discovered the saving grace of Jesus Christ away from the church.

Incidentally, you really ought not associate emotional feelings with the truth of God’s love for you.

If your saying that you shouldn’t use emotions as a measuring stick for truth, I agree. But if your saying we shouldn’t rejoice, dance, and praise Him, then tell me why?

 

[guanophore]

Interesting, that the Catholic Church considers my belief that we are **“saved by works alone” **is a false doctrine. Please see post 12 in regards to my belief in regards to works alone.

2nd, I find this post disingenuous, misleading, and insulting.

You know quite well that the Catholic Church does not consider your belief that it is by Christ’s blood shed on the cross that we are saved a “false doctrine”.

You are posting this drivel, I presume, to catch the attention of the people on the thread.

You also know very well that one Catholic’s opinion does not equate to “the Catholic Church”.

I also object to your putting someone in the doghouse because they use the word “Roman” in their username. Most ethnic Catholics are very proud of their cultural heritage, and it is no cause for “penalty”

While Catholicism is not “Roman”, there are individual Catholics who are. In fact, CAF is a ministry of the Latin Rite.

I beg that you would demonstrate appropriate respect here.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s say we have two candles, the first one is called “justification” and the second called “my works”. For the justification candle to continue to glow, you need to use the “my works” candle to continually light it. You can never be assured that the first candle won’t loose it’s flame.

I believe there are also two candles. But the first candle remains glowing forevermore because it’s Christ who lit it perfectly. And because I can see the first candle is perfectly glowing, I use the flame of the first to light the second candle.

I find it a constant curiousity that Protestants are allowed to light their second candle from the first, but when Catholics do this, it is considered “my works” or works of the flesh, rather than God working in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, I find this post disingenuous, misleading, and insulting.

You know quite well that the Catholic Church does not consider your belief that it is by Christ’s blood shed on the cross that we are saved a “false doctrine”.

You are posting this drivel, I presume, to catch the attention of the people on the thread.

You also know very well that one Catholic’s opinion does not equate to “the Catholic Church”.

I also object to your putting someone in the doghouse because they use the word “Roman” in their username. Most ethnic Catholics are very proud of their cultural heritage, and it is no cause for “penalty”

While Catholicism is not “Roman”, there are individual Catholics who are. In fact, CAF is a ministry of the Latin Rite.

I beg that you would demonstrate appropriate respect here.

I think you are quite confused what I was responding to. I was responding to this post below. If you are going to make a negative comment on something I posted, please try to follow the sequence of postings that led to a particular post. You are taking things way out of context of the discussions. You also continue to post something that you think I said, which I never remotely said. Is this an accident or a slander tactic? I’ve talk to Roman Catholic weeks ago about his name Roman Catholic and you might be surprised what he told me.

Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us".

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html

:banghead: Did you actually read this? He’s talking about the false doctrine of saved by works alone, which the Catholic Church very much rejects. This doesn’t mean saved by faith alone is correct.

For the 5 billionth time, it’s save by grace alone, with the necessary response of faith working through love. No one here has ever said, at least in any post I’ve read that we are saved by works alone!!! That doesnt’ mean we aren’t judged on the merits of our works, which is deomonstrated very clearly in the bible. The thing is, with out Faith you essentially don’t get a trail, you get Judged based upon your outright rejection of God to begin with. If you have the faith, then terrific!! You get a trail! Then God Judges you, based upon the merits of your works, and not the merits of your faith, which is where protestants have gone all wrong.

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Interesting, that the Catholic Church considers my belief that we are “saved by works alone” is a false doctrine. Please see post 12 in regards to my belief in regards to works alone.

This is what I honestly believe:

Christianity is a 100% works based righteousness.

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/cross-at-sunrise-steven-rice.jpg

guanophore,

Do you agree with my statement above that Christianity is a 100% works based righteousness?

 

[2nd_Adam]

For the sake of His sorrowful suffering, have mercy on me.

That prayer, although is very beautiful… is very confusing theologically. I believe the prayer is an intercessory prayer for the whole world for the sake of His sorrowful suffering, but why should God has mercy on you and not the whole world?

 

[guanophore]

Who says he has to give yes or no answers? You ask trick questions, and trick questions require trick answer. You are entitled to ask questions; but you are not entitled to determine the shape and form of the answers. I am surprised that these folks continue to dialogue with you at all. You are getting more and more arrogant all the time.

You know, I think this is true. I have been astonished today at the arrogance of someone who comes to a Catholic forum and directs the members about what they “need” to do in terms of their faith practice.

He also has taken it upon himself to “put” members into the “doghouse”, as though it were some sort of penalty box. It is rather concerning, actually, the imperious tone of it. If he is unable to correct it, he will not last long here. CAF is very tolerant of disagreement, since that is why the ministry is here, but there is a requirement that our faith be respected, and I have read three disrespectful posts just today.

Many of us continue to respond to such posts not because we think the individual is interested in learning from us, but for the sake of the lurkers. 2nd is voicing opinons and disagreements that many others have, but are not willing to post publicly. They are able to benefit from our responses, perhaps.