"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[guanophore]

I said all of Scirpture revelation, and not just taking a few verses out of proper context in light of all of Scirpture. When we pull a few verses out of porper context, we can create our own doctrine which is not necessarily the truth.

I agree. I think this describes that Calvin has done, in order to create his “systemic theology”.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree. I think this describes that Calvin has done, in order to create his “systemic theology”.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

How come I feel you want a boxing match instead of fellowship with me? Is it too difficult to fellowship with your Evangelical brother?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Please forgive me, but it seems to me that Catholics are utterly incapable of understanding the Biblical and Protestant doctrine that “justification is by faith alone, but not by the faith that is alone,” even though this formula has been present since the Reformation itself.

Justification is by a faith that works by love, and yet justification is in no way merited by the loving works of that faith. (This is the difference between Rome and the Reformed)

Why is it so hard for Catholics to understand our teaching?

Maybe it is because:

First, they know that faith without works is dead.

Second, they hear Protestants teach justification by faith alone “apart” from works.

Third, they don’t listen when Protestants explain that “apart from works” simply means “apart from the merit of works,” not “apart from the presence of works.”

Fourth, they hear many so-called Protestants, who also misunderstand Protestantism, teaching “easy-believism.”

Fifth, they know “easy-believism” is an utterly overwhelming argument against Protestantism (which it would be, if true Protestantism actually taught that).

Let me explain, therefore, once again what the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works actually means.

Justification with God is apart from the merit of works.

That does not mean that justification is apart from the existence of works.

This is not true.

We do not have faith in God’s grace, but in Christ himself, and him alone.

“By grace are ye saved through faith” simply means that it is a gracious thing for God to save us through faith, but in no way are we ever taught to believe in anything but Jesus Christ himself for salvation.

Very well written!

 

[guanophore]

You can’t compare Mormonism with a Catholic Christian who does not think exactly like you. Discussing truth with a Mormon is of eternal consequences. In-house debates are within the family of God dealing with Christian growth.

I was not. I was comparing your treatment of Z, who you believed does not embrace Apostolic faith, to our treatment of Tweety, who we believe does not.

A person who rejects the doctrines of the faith does not have Catholicity. No amount of clainming to have it will have any effect, especially when that person publicly broadcasts the details of which doctrines are rejected. It causes a public scandal.

Growth is difficult when it is more important to reinforce your public “image” than it is to be honest. This is the same problem we are suffering with “Catholic” polititians today.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So you can determine who is and who isn’t in your circles but Catholics can not exercise the same discernment?

I think it is clear that Tweety and some of the other posters on this site have a history. From what I have seen, Tweety has some very non Catholic ideas regarding theology and morality. Age can not be used as a defense for this.

My circle is catholic and universal, those who are united to Christ by faith. Reformed Christians only make a part of the remnant chosen by grace.

Again, how long have you been Catholic Izoid?

 

[izoid]

So, are either Adam or Rocket going to address the non existent scriptural evidence of baptismal regeration that I post? Probably not, as they didn’t in our previous discussions.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So, are either Adam or Rocket going to address the non existent scriptural evidence of baptismal regeration that I post? Probably not, as they didn’t in our previous discussions.

Again, how long have you been Catholic Izoid? I think your testimony of your conversion when being Protestant refutes the Catholic view of baptismal regeneration, doesn’t it?

 

[izoid]

Please forgive me, but it seems to me that Catholics are utterly incapable of understanding the Biblical and Protestant doctrine that “justification is by faith alone, but not by the faith that is alone,” even though this formula has been present since the Reformation itself.

Justification is by a faith that works by love, and yet justification is in no way merited by the loving works of that faith. (This is the difference between Rome and the Reformed)

Why is it so hard for Catholics to understand our teaching?

Maybe it is because:

First, they know that faith without works is dead.

Second, they hear Protestants teach justification by faith alone “apart” from works.

Third, they don’t listen when Protestants explain that “apart from works” simply means “apart from the merit of works,” not “apart from the presence of works.”

Fourth, they hear many so-called Protestants, who also misunderstand Protestantism, teaching “easy-believism.”

Fifth, they know “easy-believism” is an utterly overwhelming argument against Protestantism (which it would be, if true Protestantism actually taught that).

Let me explain, therefore, once again what the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone apart from works actually means.

Justification with God is apart from the merit of works.

That does not mean that justification is apart from the existence of works.

This is not true.

We do not have faith in God’s grace, but in Christ himself, and him alone.

“By grace are ye saved through faith” simply means that it is a gracious thing for God to save us through faith, but in no way are we ever taught to believe in anything but Jesus Christ himself for salvation.

I have an even better explanation. A group of people, theologians, decided that they no longer wanted to be influenced by the Catholic Church. The protested the church and developed their own interpretations about justification. Out of this protest they developed thousands of sects amongst themselves, many of which hold to a vastly different idea than the original theologians. None of them, however, adhere to the apostolic teachings of the early church.

I think this is most likely what happened as opposed to your theory of a “misunderstanding” of terms.

 

[izoid]

Again, how long have you been Catholic Izoid? I think your testimony of your conversion when being Protestant refutes the Catholic view of baptismal regeneration, doesn’t it?

It in no way refutes anything. I was baptized as an adult, after having a full knowledge and consent to Jesus and His sacrifice for me, a sinner. I think this falls perfectly in line with the Catholic view also, no? If I am mistaken, please tell me what the Catholic Church teaches regarding adult converts and baptism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It in no way refutes anything. I was baptized as an adult, after having a full knowledge and consent to Jesus and His sacrifice for me, a sinner. I think this falls perfectly in line with the Catholic view also, no? If I am mistaken, please tell me what the Catholic Church teaches regarding adult converts and baptism.

First, please tell me how long you have been Catholic.

 

[izoid]

There is no badge of honor of being a Calvinist. However, for being Catholic is quite different in the importance of being Catholic for the Catholic. In addition, John MacArthur is not a 71 year old great grandmother like Tweetymon. I think you will find that the majority of Reformed Christians do not really see MacArthur as being a true Calvinists… whatever that means. There is a term called being “Truly Reformed” in Cavlinist’s circles. For me, what that really matters is being Chrisitan since I do not believe that Calvinism saves. All that really matters for each person is moving from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, for being in Christ is everything. All I’m trying to do is defend Tweetymom for the constant attacks from a few overzelous Catholics on this site, who have lost sight of 1 cor 13 in their defense of the Catholic Faith.

Izoid, how long have you been Catholic?

So Adam, what is it that makes one a Calvinist? I recall that you strenuously denied my claims of being a Calvinist in a prior thread. It seems that there are certain core beliefs that one must uphold in order to remain a member of “the group”, whether that group is Calvinism, Catholicism or whatever. If you can call me out and question my membership then why can we not do the same.

The argument that Calvinism is not a badge is inconsistent. You take every opportunity to point out that you are a Calvinist, that is what sets you apart from other protestants. You even have a thread going about how Calvin is responsible for Thanksgiving. It is clearly a badge of honor to you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So Adam, what is it that makes one a Calvinist? I recall that you strenuously denied my claims of being a Calvinist in a prior thread. It seems that there are certain core beliefs that one must uphold in order to remain a member of “the group”, whether that group is Calvinism, Catholicism or whatever. If you can call me out and question my membership then why can we not do the same.

The argument that Calvinism is not a badge is inconsistent. You take every opportunity to point out that you are a Calvinist, that is what sets you apart from other protestants. You even have a thread going about how Calvin is responsible for Thanksgiving. It is clearly a badge of honor to you.

First, please tell me how long you have been Catholic.

 

[izoid]

You can’t answer these questions can you Adam? I know that is why you continue to ask instead of answer, it does not feel so good to realize that your faith does not have an answer. I went through the same thing as you, I was faced with these very verses and when NO ONE could adequately explain how they do not support the Catholic position, I had to make a choice. You too have to make a choice.

 

[izoid]

First, please tell me how long you have been Catholic.

It is irrelevant for our discussion regarding these issues. Sola scriptura remember?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You can’t answer these questions can you Adam? I know that is why you continue to ask instead of answer, it does not feel so good to realize that your faith does not have an answer. I went through the same thing as you, I was faced with these very verses and when NO ONE could adequately explain how they do not support the Catholic position, I had to make a choice. You too have to make a choice.

I would love to answer all of your questions. But please let me know how long you have been Catholic. My good friend from Hawaii has not been Catholic very long either. So, how long have you been Cathoilc, and then we can continue.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is irrelevant for our discussion regarding these issues. Sola scriptura remember?

What do you have to hide, have you been Catholic less than a year?

 

[izoid]

What do you have to hide, have you been Catholic less than a year?

Nothing to hide at all, I jut don’t see the relevance. In fact, I see it as an attempt to divert from the issues at hand.

Adam, please understand that I really do value you as a separated brother. I do not think that you are personally an enemy to myself or any other brother or sister in Christ. I do see you as an enemy to the Church however and that is why I am often hard on you and on Rocket. I am starting to think that the 2 of you are one and the same person!

Let me explain what I mean by enemy to the church. Calvinism, as with much of the current protestant church was founded in an effort to separate from the Catholic Church. The intent was not to bring unity but to separate. In my life as a conservative evangelical, I was exposed to extremely hostile views of the Catholic Church. Much of these views were taught by the very people that monergism.com links to. You also like to direct us Catholics to this website and you encourage us to read preachers that are VERY hostile to Catholics. As long as you continue to attempt to direct Catholics away from the true Church of Jesus and to a sect that was established 1500 years after His death and resurrection I will treat you as hostile to the Church.

We can fellowship as brothers but when we discuss theology and our differences, things are different. Scripture makes it clear that this is a spiritual battle and I see Calvin as attacking the Church that Christ Himself established. I will defend Her to the death!

 

[zerinus]

I think Scripture can answer your question with authority.

No doubts.

However, I think you have to settle on the biblical answer yourself.

The sovereignity of God is found throughout all of Scripture.

I am sure.

God could not be God if His will was not done.

No question.

The God in the Bible is not a weak and anemic God in which man’s fee will can overpower God’s sovereign will.

The whole of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, teaches that man has freewill. The whole of the Bible, if condensed, could be summarized into these two sentences: “do good, and eschew evil”. The following verses are just a tiny glimpse of that. I found these verses by just doing a Bible search for “do good”:

Psalms 34:

14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Psalms 37:

27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.

Isaiah 1:

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Luke 6:

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Galatians 6:

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Hebrews 13:

16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

James 4:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 Peter 3:

11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

If you wanted to do an intensive research, and extract all the verses in the Bible that in one form or another enjoins on mankind to do good, to repent, and to avoid evil, you would find that it covers about three quarters of the Bible, Old and New Testaments. If man did not have the freewill to obey God or disobey Him, that would make God a liar, a cheat, and deceiver; because He throughout His dealings with mankind has commanded them to do something which He knew they could not do, because He had already programmed them to do what He had wanted them to do. You Protestants want to make God liar, which is a terrible sin and a great wickedness. God will punish you for it if you don’t repent of that wickedness.

Maybe we should start a thread on the attributes of God according to Scripture revelation alone?

What for? What good is that going to do you? There is only one attribute of God which you apparently don’t know about, that you need to learn, and that is that God does not lie:

Numbers 23:

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good

1 Samuel 15:

29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Malachi 3:

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Romans 11:

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Titus 1:

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

James 1:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

It means that He doesn’t deceive either. He doesn’t play tricks on people. His language is straight, and He stands by what he has said.

 

[izoid]

Adam, I hope you can answer this with a yes or no as you have often encouraged us to.

1. Do you think the Catholic Church teaches the true gospel message as you understand it?
2. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Christ established on earth?
3. Do you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, Saint, the Eucharist, Baptism and Justification are Biblical teachings?
4. Finally, are you hopeful that Catholics here on CA will come to know the truth regarding the matters in question #3 above through your effort to point us to the truth?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam, I hope you can answer this with a yes or no as you have often encouraged us to.

1. Do you think the Catholic Church teaches the true gospel message as you understand it?
2. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Christ established on earth?
3. Do you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, Saint, the Eucharist, Baptism and Justification are Biblical teachings?
4. Finally, are you hopeful that Catholics here on CA will come to know the truth regarding the matters in question #3 above through your effort to point us to the truth?

First, please tell me how long you have been Catholic.