"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Dancelittleewok]

Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Romans 11:28
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Please try to wrestle with the Scriptures if you really want to debate the sovereignity of man verses the sovereignity of God in salvation.

Again, your interpretation doesn’t equal scripture. My point still remains: why do I need to look into your interpretation of Scripture if it is so easily refuted by simple logic? Please desist with this strawman: we Catholic don’t believe in the sovereignty of man, it is only your perception.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again, your interpretation doesn’t equal scripture. My point still remains: why do I need to look into your interpretation of Scripture if it is so easily refuted by simple logic? Please desist with this strawman: we Catholic don’t believe in the sovereignty of man, it is only your perception.

The Catholic Faith never claims to be a faith based of Scripture alone. Did you want to try to defend the faith of free wll of man in salvation within the Scriptures. But, pelase make sure your view falls outside of Pelagism.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

The Catholic Faith never claims to be a faith based of Scripture alone. Did you want to try to defend the faith of free wll of man in salvation within the Scriptures. But, pelase make sure your view fall outside of Pelagism.

In no post have I suggested that I deny grace or original sin hence I’m not Pelagism. You might want to actually answer the contradictions in your theology:

Adam and Eve are given free will and God’s sovereignty isn’t diminished and they sin (you’ve admitted this in the other thread), why not now?

 

[2nd_Adam]

In no post have I suggested that I deny grace or original sin hence I’m not Pelagism. You might want to actually answer the contradictions in your theology:

Adam and Eve are given free will and God’s sovereignty isn’t diminished and they sin (you’ve admitted this in the other thread), why not now?

Sure, Adam and Eve had a free will to obey God prior to the fall. Yet God allowed Adam and Eve to fall anyways. Do you think God knew Adam and Eve would be tempted by Satan prior to placing the tree of knowledge in the garden? Do you think God knew that Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before creating the tree of knowledge? Please answer my questions if you would like to continue our discussion.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Sure, Adam and Eve had a free will to obey God prior to the fall. Yet God allowed Adam and Eve to fall anyways. Do you think God knew Adam and Eve would be tempted by Satan prior to placing the tree of knowledge in the garden? Do you think God knew that Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before creating the tree of knowledge? Please answer my questions if you would like to continue our discussion.

This is based on a premise that pre-knowledge equals predestination, which hasn’t been proved by you. You’re not answering the question: If humans in the beginning had the basic equipment of will and intellect created by God himself, why not now?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Is that so?

Acts 22:16
16’Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

Notice that in Acts 9 when Ananias is praying for Paul to receive his sight, he also received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

Acts 9:17 -18
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is based on a premise that pre-knowledge equals predestination, which hasn’t been proved by you. You’re not answering the question: If humans in the beginning had the basic equipment of will and intellect created by God himself, why not now?

According to Scripture truth, Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which God declared to be good. After the fall, all mankind are created in the image of fallen Adam according to Scripture revelation. Do you think mankind was basically good after the fall, able to live a life pleasing to God?

 

[tweetymom]

I believe it is you that is wrong Adam. Tweety’s views are not Catholic views. It is clear to anyone who reads what she believes. She may be a practicing Catholic but her theology and moral views are not in alignment with the Church. In my opinion, she is very harmful to those who come to these boards to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. He views are not those of the Church in which she worships.

Thank you once again, for you kind kind refrences of me. As we were traveling yesterday, I spent sometime in prayer praiseing the Lord, while doing that I thought of how you people think that you all are so right and think you are so Catholic and everyone is so wrong. Now I will say to you I am glad you don’t have any problems with accepting everything and if by doing that I am supposed to see according to you and Mr. Gee and others, what a true Catholic is supposed to be and act like, well excuse me I do not see that at all. What I see is a lot of condemnation, judgement, harsh words. You may think you have the right answers, and I hope that Jesus sees it that way for your sakes.

I am glad that you all are really perfect before God. And you do not know my morals at all. Sorry that you judge me to be harmful to others. Trust me the way some of you act would not make me want to become a Catholic. I have received many PM’s from Catholics and non Catholics, thanking me for standing up for what I beleive.

So dear people continue to have a field day lashing out at me. Like I said I consider it a blessing from God. And God Bless you as you continue to do what you think is right. God is your judge, not me.

 

[guanophore]

A couple of things come to mind. Lazuras was lying dead in the tomb for four days, when Jesus called “Lazuras, come forth”. Did Lazuras have any will to continue lying dead?

This is a very interesting question which I have never considered, though I have often wondered “where” he was, and if he was conscious of himself. I suppose it would depend upon the nature of his state, how pleasant it was. Often those who have near death experiences talk about wanting to go toward the light, and they do not want to come back, but they feel they are called or obligated to do so. I presume that Lazarus was, being beloved of Jesus, desiring nothing but to be close to Him, so if there was anything in him that did not want to go back to the vale of tears, it was overcome by Jesus’ call. Not sure where you are going with this?

Saul's calling on the road to Damascus, after Paul asked "Who are You?" and the Lord answered "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting", immediately Paul asked "What shall I do, Lord?"

It seems that Saul was a fervent follower of God, and was acting (wrongfully) out of his zeal to purify the house of God. He may have even prayed that God show him if he was going the wrong way.

Then there is the Apostles themselves, did they choose Christ, or were they chosen by Him?

Don’t you think both things are true? Did they not come to love Him because He first loved them?

Then's there's Job and Jonah, did Job have any choice in his suffering? How long could have Jonah resisted God's will?

I think, once a person devotes their life to God, all other choices flow from that one. I find that often, when I am working with persons overwhelmed with grief and suffering, they must be reminded that they did this at some point.

I think I tend to lean a little more on the side that God's sovereign will can and does overpower this free will of man whenever He chooses.

I think this is a wrong model. God is Love, and in HIm there is no darkness. The very notion of “overpower” seems contradictory to love, which sets free. I agree with you that the will of God is ultimately done, but within His sovereignty, He allows some to choose not to fulfill His desire for their lives. People can reject His purpose for themselves, and He allows this, because His love sets free.

 

[guanophore]

I used to believe just like you do in man’s free will in salvation over God’s sovereign will. Most Protestants are Arminian Christians who think just like Catholics do in regards to free will. I have discussed and debated free will with my Arminian brothers for at least 12 years. So, I know it is impossible to support the concept of the sovereignty of man in salvation within Scripture alone when you consider all of Scripture.

You are wrong, 2nd, you misunderstood my position. I do NOT believe in mans’ free will over God’s sovereign will. It seems that you are reading into my post what you expect to find. This is how people read, including scripture. It is difficult not to approach things from our own prejudice.

 Would you still like to try?

No, I have no interest in attempting to support a position I do not hold. I did learn how to do that in my high school debate team, but it does not seem to be a worthwhile activity for me in this thread.

Appealing to extra-biblical revelation does not mean much when trying to debate this issue, for God has spoken authoratively in the Scriptures.  Sacred Tradition cannot conflict in what God has revealed in His Sacred Scriptures.

God has also spoken authoritatively in Sacred Tradition, and I agree, nothing in it contradicts what is found in the Scriptures.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

Are you saying you believe it is not possible for persons to reject God’s purpose for themselves?

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6

Is it your position that those who do not come to life never “look on the Son”?

 . In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee  of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1

The Fathers taught this is a reference to baptism. They also taught that it was possible not to be united to our inheritance, because we are cut off by disobedience.

 

[guanophore]

When Catholic Christians and Arminian Protestant Christians have a view of free will like yours, all they can do is debate from a philosophical position which is just human reasoning or human wisdom. Until you are willing to test your view in light of all of Scripture, you will continue to use human reasoning over divine revelation on the issue.

I eagerly look forward to your answer, 2nd. How is it that God created Adam and Eve with free will, and this did not compromise His sovereignty, yet us having free will does?

I wonder if your position on this is that He willed the fall, and that it was inevitable. If they really did not have a choice, they just chose what was already in their heart (rebellion and disobedience).

 

[guanophore]

Sure, Adam and Eve had a free will to obey God prior to the fall. Yet God allowed Adam and Eve to fall anyways. Do you think God knew Adam and Eve would be tempted by Satan prior to placing the tree of knowledge in the garden? Do you think God knew that Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before creating the tree of knowledge? Please answer my questions if you would like to continue our discussion.

Yes, He knew. But you did not answer the question. How is it that He could create them in this state without compromising HIs own sovereighty?

Also, what does this have to do with the sufficiency of grace?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are wrong, 2nd, you misunderstood my position. I do NOT believe in mans’ free will over God’s sovereign will. It seems that you are reading into my post what you expect to find. This is how people read, including scripture. It is difficult not to approach things from our own prejudice.

Okay Guan,

A Catholic Christian asked me about Adam and Eve and I tried to answer him. Since you posted that I miunderstood your position, please tell me why you do not believe in man’s free will over God’s sovereignity in salvation. Since you seem to say the Catholic Church cannot error in doctrine, please enlighten me as a non-Catholic Christian.** I believe God is completely sovereign over all things. I** have no idea how you guys can have complete faith in God if God is not sovereign in your salvation. Do you believe God wants to save all His adopted children who are united to Christ, but He still wants His children to control their our destiny to the point of their death? Do you see how this is related to the sufficient of grace? BTW… the free will topic for both unbelievers and believers needs to driven by the Scriptures instead of human reasoning and human wisdom.

Have No Fear

“So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by guanophore
It is curious, if this is the case, why Tweety rejects Orthodox Catholic doctrines.

Perhaps you support her in this because you don’t believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is from the Apostles, and therefore, is not “orthodox doctrine”, therefore, it cannot fuel any love for Christ.

You also seem to be falling for the fallacy that it is loving to confirm others in error. I wonder how you can see that this is not a loving act if the person is a Mormon, but if it is a person masquerading as Catholic who is really not, all of the sudden it is “unloving”.

Originally Posted by izoid
I believe it is you that is wrong Adam. Tweety’s views are not Catholic views. It is clear to anyone who reads what she believes. She may be a practicing Catholic but her theology and moral views are not in alignment with the Church. In my opinion, she is very harmful to those who come to these boards to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. He views are not those of the Church in which she worships

.

Thank you once again, for you kind kind refrences of me. As we were traveling yesterday, I spent sometime in prayer praiseing the Lord, while doing that I thought of how you people think that you all are so right and think you are so Catholic and everyone is so wrong. Now I will say to you I am glad you don’t have any problems with accepting everything and if by doing that I am supposed to see according to you and Mr. Gee and others, what a true Catholic is supposed to be and act like, well excuse me I do not see that at all. What I see is a lot of condemnation, judgement, harsh words. You may think you have the right answers, and I hope that Jesus sees it that way for your sakes.

I am glad that you all are really perfect before God. And you do not know my morals at all. Sorry that you judge me to be harmful to others. Trust me the way some of you act would not make me want to become a Catholic. I have received many PM’s from Catholics and non Catholics, thanking me for standing up for what I beleive.

So dear people continue to have a field day lashing out at me. Like I said I consider it a blessing from God. And God Bless you as you continue to do what you think is right. God is your judge, not me.

Good morning Tweetymom,

I’m so sorry to continue to read the posts of a few Catholics who continue to attack you. I think they like to use you as a pawn in their overzealous attempt to defend the Catholic Faith at all cost. I think non-Catholic Christians know of others in our own communities who tend to act the same way in our attempts to defend our particular version of Christianity. I used to be the same way in regards to Calvinism, but I have personally have grown to understand that the body of Christ is quite diverse… much bigger than our own circles.Tweetymon, you are such a godly model as both a Christian and a Catholic Christian. So, hang in there (Romans 8:28), and rejoice in your suffering for the Lord’s sake and for the joy of it.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. - Romans 8:28

:knight1::hug1::harp:

 

[2nd_Adam]

I eagerly look forward to your answer, 2nd. How is it that God created Adam and Eve with free will, and this did not compromise His sovereignty, yet us having free will does?

I wonder if your position on this is that He willed the fall, and that it was inevitable. If they really did not have a choice, they just chose what was already in their heart (rebellion and disobedience).

Adam and Eve had the free will choice and ability to obey the command of God to not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Their wills were not fallen like ours. God in His complete sovereignity placed the tree of knowledge in the garden, allowed Satan to be there to tempt Eve, and permitted and allowed to have everything play out exactly like it did… to the praise of His glorious grace. We know God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. God cannot be tempted by evil, nor can He do something evil. All that God does is wise, perfect, and glorious… worthy of our complete praise and worship. Because our human minds cannot understand the ways of God as revealed in Sacred Scripture, does not make it untrue. God does everything for His own glory, which is glorious, causing us to fall to our knees in worship of Him. Without the fall of man, we would not know the depths of the love of God as reveaeld at the cross…

The love of God manifested:

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1

 

[tweetymom]

.

Good morning Tweetymom,

I’m so sorry to continue to read the posts of a few Catholics who continue to attack you. I think they like to use you as a pawn in their overzealous attempt to defend the Catholic Faith at all cost. I think non-Catholic Christians know of others in our own communities who tend to act the same way in our attempts to defend our particular version of Christianity. I used to be the same way in regards to Calvinism, but I have personally have grown to understand that the body of Christ is quite diverse… much bigger than our own circles.Tweetymon, you are such a godly model as both a Christian and a Catholic Christian. So, hang in there (Romans 8:28), and rejoice in your suffering for the Lord’s sake and for the joy of it.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. - Romans 8:28

:knight1::hug1::harp:

Thank you Adam.And thank you for being my brother in Christ. And as i was praising God yesterday on our trip to San Jose for Thanksgiving those verses popped up in my head and I really started praising the Lord. It is my honor when others defile me for my belief in Jesus and that is why we are Kin in the site of God. And I praise His Holy name.

 

[The_Ambassador]

The whole of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, teaches that man has freewill.

Nowhere does the Bible teach of a human freedom that exceeds the bounds of either:

1. God’s sovereign control, or
2. The condition of our own human nature.

Human Freedom Within the Boundaries of God’s Sovereign Rule

God has certainly endowed His creatures with a certain amount of freedom, but at no point does He allow our freedom to restrict His sovereignty. When our freedom bumps up against God’s freedom, God always wins. For instance, Lamentations 3:37 declares, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the LORD commandeth it not?” In other words, no one can say, “I will do this or that,” and have it happen, if it is not a part of God’s sovereign will.

The Apostle James also reminds us to be very careful with how we frame our words with respect to the future, and reminds us that the future is in the hands of God alone. He admonishes the autonomous thinking of proud men who claim, “today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and by and sell, and get a gain.” He sharply corrects this tendency to boast in our future accomplishments as he says, “for that, ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that” (James 4:13-15).

Clearly then, far from teaching any such pagan notion of human autonomy, the Bible plainly declares, “There are many devises in a man’s heart; nevertheless, the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand” (Proverbs 19:21)!

Human Freedom Within the Boundaries of Human Nature

The three faculties of the soul consist of the mind, the heart, and the will. The mind and heart of man directly influence the choices that a man makes, so that the will is not some separate entity that is free to act as its own sovereign.

In short, the will of man is free only within the boundaries of his own natural condition. Therefore, if we are to understand the extent of the will’s freedom, we will first have to determine the natural condition of both the mind and the heart of fallen man.

By consequence of the fall of Adam, all men are now born into the world as sinners, spiritually dead, and at enmity with God (Psalm 51:5; Romans 8:7, 8). The Bible demonstrates that our natures have been contaminated by sin, leaving the natural man with fallen and corrupted hearts and minds. This is no mere human deduction, but the plain testimony of Scripture:

**Our hearts are corrupt: ** The Bible plainly declares, “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5). Jesus said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).

**Our minds are corrupt: ** The Bible goes on to declare, “the natural mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). The Apostle Paul reminded the Christians as Colossi of their natural condition prior to their conversion. “And you,” he reminded them, “were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works” (Colossians 1:21). And again in another place, the Apostle Paul declares that all, not some, but all natural men “walk in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them due to the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to sensuality, to work all uncleanness with greediness” (Ephesians 4:17-19).

**Our wills are corrupt: ** As I have stated, the will is not a separate entity that is free to act as its own sovereign. Rather, the will is intimately related to the heart and mind. The moral choices we make are ultimately determined by the disposition of our hearts and minds. Therefore, with a fallen and corrupted heart desiring sin, and a fallen and corrupted mind being biased toward our own hearts, our wills are naturally inclined toward sin.

Jesus likewise taught that men are like trees. “Every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:17).* “For figs are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush” (Luke 6:44).

The truth that Jesus is here communicating is that, even as the condition of a tree determines the nature of its fruit; so too, the condition of men determines the nature of the fruit they produce.

Jesus is not here saying that men do not make real choices; rather he is simply teaching that fallen and sinful men, because of their depraved and sinful condition naturally and consistently make sinful choices.

Our choices are a product of our moral condition, “O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34)!

Now this brings up the necessary inquiry - as you have already alluded to:

So as to your objection that God would be unjust if he commanded of us that which we could not accomplish, read my next post.

 

[guanophore]

thank you once again, for you kind kind refrences of me. As we were traveling yesterday, I spent sometime in prayer praiseing the Lord, while doing that I thought of how you people think that you all are so right and think you are so Catholic and everyone is so wrong.

It is not “unkind” for us to point out to you that you are claiming to espouse a faith which you do not. I do understand that it seems unkind to you, because it hurts your feelings. You would like to maintain a sense of good conscience before God, and beleive you can do that even if you pick and choose which teachings of the Church you will reject.

No one here has claimed to be “so Catholic”. We are all judged by the same standard. We all fall short of the One Faith when we fail to embrace the Teachings committed to the Church by the Apostles.

Persons who are more honest about it, however, don’t list themselves as “Catholic”, because they realize there are some aspects of the faith they reject. It is not “wrong” for you to hold Protestant theology. That is where you are in your spiritual walk right now, and I agree with what 2nd posted on this. Some people are not yet well enough developed in their faith to recognize and accept the Truth. You stand in the tradition of Apollos. You are fervent in your faith, though it is incomplete and uninformed.

Now I will say to you I am glad you don’t have any problems with accepting everything and if by doing that I am supposed to see according to you and Mr. Gee and others, what a true Catholic is supposed to be and act like, well excuse me I do not see that at all.

You seem to be getting very defensive here Tweety. No one here has said that we don’t have problems accepting everything. On the contrary, I have never met anyone here on CAF that has not struggled with one Teaching or another.

Also, no one here has tried to hold themselves up as an example of “what a true Catholic is supposed to act like”. You are just imagining that. Personally, my issue has to do with holding yourself out to be something you are not. And that does not have to do with being catholic or not. I would have that issue with anyone on here who claimed a faith they did not espouse.

What I see is a lot of condemnation, judgement, harsh words.

I understand that you perceive it that way. We cannot help but perceive things according to our experiences and education (or lack of it). Apparently no one has confronted you about your duplicity, and you find it very upsetting.

You may think you have the right answers, and I hope that Jesus sees it that way for your sakes.

On the contrary, I returned to the Catholic Church because I became convinced that I do NOT have the right answers. I decided to accept His promise that He would lead the Church into “all Truth”. He did not make this promise to individuals, but to the Church. As individuals, we can participate in that promise to the extent that we embrace the Truth that has been revealed to the Church.

I am glad that you all are really perfect before God. And you do not know my morals at all. Sorry that you judge me to be harmful to others. Trust me the way some of you act would not make me want to become a Catholic. I have received many PM’s from Catholics and non Catholics, thanking me for standing up for what I beleive.

This seems like a defensive and sarcastic response, Tweety. No one here has claimed to be “perfect before God”. I trust that your morals are as good as they can be, for one who rejects the Teachings of the Apostles. I am certain that you walk well within the degree of revelation you ahve received. I am sorry that your actions are harmful also, but this can be easily corrected by you whenever you are ready.

I am glad you realize that you do not want to be Catholic, at least in part, because other people have hurt your feelings. This is actually a very common reason that people reject ecclesial communities.

I also thank you for standing up for what you believe. It takes a lot of pluck to continually claim in a public forum that you espouse a faith that you do not, especially when you are given a lot of criticism about it. You are one tough lady!

So dear people continue to have a field day lashing out at me. Like I said I consider it a blessing from God. And God Bless you as you continue to do what you think is right. God is your judge, not me.

No one here is 'lashing out" at you, Tweety. We have observed something about your behavior that is very concerning for us. We have given you feedback about it which you are unable to receive. You seem to prefer to see yourself as a victim, rather than maybe looking at the feedback to see if there might be some validity to it.

God bless you as you continue to do what you believe is right as well. I am convinced that God’s grace is sufficient to lead you into all Truth.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Nowhere does the Bible teach of a human freedom that exceeds the bounds of either:

1. God’s sovereign control, or
2. The condition of our own human nature.

Human Freedom Within the Boundaries of God’s Sovereign Rule

God has certainly endowed His creatures with a certain amount of freedom, but at no point does He allow our freedom to restrict His sovereignty. When our freedom bumps up against God’s freedom, God always wins. For instance, Lamentations 3:37 declares, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the LORD commandeth it not?” In other words, no one can say, “I will do this or that,” and have it happen, if it is not a part of God’s sovereign will.

The Apostle James also reminds us to be very careful with how we frame our words with respect to the future, and reminds us that the future is in the hands of God alone. He admonishes the autonomous thinking of proud men who claim, “today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and by and sell, and get a gain.” He sharply corrects this tendency to boast in our future accomplishments as he says, “for that, ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that” (James 4:13-15).

Clearly then, far from teaching any such pagan notion of human autonomy, the Bible plainly declares, “There are many devises in a man’s heart; nevertheless, the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand” (Proverbs 19:21)!

Human Freedom Within the Boundaries of Human Nature

The three faculties of the soul consist of the mind, the heart, and the will. The mind and heart of man directly influence the choices that a man makes, so that the will is not some separate entity that is free to act as its own sovereign.

In short, the will of man is free only within the boundaries of his own natural condition. Therefore, if we are to understand the extent of the will’s freedom, we will first have to determine the natural condition of both the mind and the heart of fallen man.

By consequence of the fall of Adam, all men are now born into the world as sinners, spiritually dead, and at enmity with God (Psalm 51:5; Romans 8:7, 8). The Bible demonstrates that our natures have been contaminated by sin, leaving the natural man with fallen and corrupted hearts and minds. This is no mere human deduction, but the plain testimony of Scripture:

**Our hearts are corrupt: ** The Bible plainly declares, “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5). Jesus said, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile a man" (Mark 7:21-23).

**Our minds are corrupt: ** The Bible goes on to declare, “the natural mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). The Apostle Paul reminded the Christians as Colossi of their natural condition prior to their conversion. “And you,” he reminded them, “were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works” (Colossians 1:21). And again in another place, the Apostle Paul declares that all, not some, but all natural men “walk in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them due to the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to sensuality, to work all uncleanness with greediness” (Ephesians 4:17-19).

**Our wills are corrupt: ** As I have stated, the will is not a separate entity that is free to act as its own sovereign. Rather, the will is intimately related to the heart and mind. The moral choices we make are ultimately determined by the disposition of our hearts and minds. Therefore, with a fallen and corrupted heart desiring sin, and a fallen and corrupted mind being biased toward our own hearts, our wills are naturally inclined toward sin.

Jesus likewise taught that men are like trees. “Every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:17).* “For figs are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush” (Luke 6:44)…

Excellent post on the topic of free will and the sufficiency of His grace for those who know God through Christ. Because we know God is completely sovereign… that we can have complete faith and assurance that God will finish the work that He started to the praise of His glorious sustaining grace!

Thanksgiving and Prayer

I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. - Apostle Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, He knew. But you did not answer the question. How is it that He could create them in this state without compromising HIs own sovereighty?

Also, what does this have to do with the sufficiency of grace?

How can God’s complete sovereignity not be related to the sufficiency of grace? Personally brother, I have no idea how you can have faith in God to finish the work that He started in you if you remain sovereign in your redemption and salvation? How can your love and affection grow for God, if God leaves it up to you to make it to Heaven knowing very well that we all struggle with sin in this life? Faith has an object in the person and work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. The question: Is the person and work of Christ sufficient for us?