"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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Once again I praise Jesus that you called me bent and distorted , I take delight in every rebuff from you. Praise be to God!
I hope that you will be able, at some point, to separate your perceptions from your personhood,Tweety. You see a person can have misunderstandings about things,but it does not make them a bad person.

You are suffering from a misundertanding that a person can hold to Protestant theology and still be Catholic. The fact that your perceptions are bent and distorted does not mean that your Soul is that way. It just means that the filters in your mind are contamninated by the world. This is the human condition.

Jesus is sufficient to deliver us from all of these bent and distorted perceptions. Jesus is sufficient, by His glorious grace, to deliver us from evil of every kind, and to make our mind like the mind of Christ. 👍
 
Guanophore,

Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will and God’s sovereignity in salvation. I don’t want to distort the Catholic view, I just want to understand the official Catholic view. Here’s your chance to show all us non-Catholic Christians that the Catholic Church is truly the One True Church that cannot error in the Faith in regards to doctrine.
2nd, the Catholic position has already been shared with you, and you have rejected it. You, along with Tweety, have already decided that the Catholic Church has erred in doctrine.

The Apostles taught that the nature of man was wounded in the Fall, and the effects of original sin pull him away from God. This does not mean, however, that man is unable to choose the good. I will ask you the same question I did before when this issue came up. At what point was Cornelius born again?
 
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Guanophore,
Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will and God’s sovereignity in salvation. I don’t want to distort the Catholic view, I just want to understand the official Catholic view. Here’s your chance to show all us non-Catholic Christians that the Catholic Church is truly the One True Church that cannot error in the Faith in regards to doctrine.
2nd, the Catholic position has already been shared with you, and you have rejected it. You, along with Tweety, have already decided that the Catholic Church has erred in doctrine.

The Apostles taught that the nature of man was wounded in the Fall, and the effects of original sin pull him away from God. This does not mean, however, that man is unable to choose the good. I will ask you the same question I did before when this issue came up. At what point was Cornelius born again?
From your response above, I now know for sure you do not represent the true Catholic Faith on many of the issues you try to claim that you do. It is quite the pattern of your when it comes down to the actual doctrines of the Catholic Church… posting without substance. IMO… your attempt to try to defend the Catholic Faith is admirable, but you seem to be very deficient in your personal knowledge of the actual contents of the Catholic Faith. That is my point… you have a zeal for the Catholic Faith, but your zeal is not based on knowledge of the true Catholic Faith as defined by the Magisterium. Maybe that is the real reason you are here on Catholic Answers, so you can learn the actual Catholic Faith that you claim to know and defend. Therefore, I believe your continual persecution of Tweetymom is not warranted. I cleary see that Tweetymom to be the true Catholic when I compare her maturity in Christ to you.
 
From your response above, I now know for sure you do not represent the true Catholic Faith on many of the issues you try to claim that you do. It is quite the pattern of your when it comes down to the actual doctrines of the Catholic Church… posting without substance. IMO… your attempt to try to defend the Catholic Faith is admirable, but you seem to be very deficient in your personal knowledge of the actual contents of the Catholic Faith.
Ok.
That is my point… you have a zeal for the Catholic Faith, but your zeal is not based on knowledge of the true Catholic Faith as defined by the Magisterium.
I am curious how you get this from my observation that you have already received and rejected that teaching. 🤷

We covered this ground before. The Catholic Church does not embrace the heresies contained in the TULIP. The Calvanistic doctrine of Total Depravity is a departure from what the Apostles taught about the effects of the Fall upon mankind. Mankind has been created to seek and to find God, and this desire remains in him even after the Fall.
Maybe that is the reason you are here on Catholic Answers, so you can learn the actual Catholic Faith that you claim to know.
Indeed, I have learned a great deal about not only the Catholic faith, but Calvanism and many other faith traditions as well. 👍

That is why I came here.
Therefore, I believe your continual persecution is not warranted in regards to Tweetymom I see Tweetymom to be the true Catholic when I compare her maturity in Christ to you.
You are a living example of a person who has fallen over the stumbling block that she provides.

However, you did not answer my question. When was Cornelius born again? You said you wanted to discuss the Catholic view of free will? Why are you avoiding this?

What choices did Cornelius make with regard to his relationship with God, and which of them prededed his regeneration?
 
Ok.

I am curious how you get this from my observation that you have already received and rejected that teaching. 🤷

We covered this ground before.?
Guan,

You actually covered no ground at all. Your posts are all the same. All you say is that you stand for the Apostolic Faith, yet it has no substance with actual contents. All you do is try to reflect the posts with substance without anything from you. You’re quite the pseudo apologist. When you are ready to discuss with substance, addressing actual Scriptures… then we can continue.
 
I hope that you will be able, at some point, to separate your perceptions from your personhood,Tweety. You see a person can have misunderstandings about things,but it does not make them a bad person.

You are suffering from a misundertanding that a person can hold to Protestant theology and still be Catholic. The fact that your perceptions are bent and distorted does not mean that your Soul is that way. It just means that the filters in your mind are contamninated by the world. This is the human condition.

Jesus is sufficient to deliver us from all of these bent and distorted perceptions. Jesus is sufficient, by His glorious grace, to deliver us from evil of every kind, and to make our mind like the mind of Christ. 👍
And like I said before thank you very much for your words, I do not as I have stated take offence at them I praise Jesus for them! If my filters are are contamnitated it certainally is not of the world it is the word of God and His grace to me.

You know actually I am not a Catholic like you. Because I sense no emotions towards anything but critism, my thinks brother I sense a whole lot of anger coming from your post. But thats just my humble oponion! I am a born again Catholic.

I am glad that Adam is my brother in Christ and so are you dear Mr. gee, even tho you like to be at odds with anyone who doesn’t agree with your way.

I accepted Christ as my personal Sqavior when I was 35, and have been very happy since. I have made many mistakes for which Jesus has forgiven me for. So Brother keep the attacks coming, I am sure you can come up with a lot more before Jesus comes back to judge us all. So carry on with my blessings, it makes me happy, cause I know that I am living and breathing as Christ would have me do. Hope that you can say the same.
 
When Catholic Christians and Arminian Protestant Christians have a view of free will like yours, all they can do is debate from a philosophical position which is just human reasoning or human wisdom. Until you are willing to test your view in light of all of Scripture, you will continue to use human reasoning over divine revelation on the issue.
I have a question to ask you Adam. Have a careful read of this scripture, and then answer the question that follows:

Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

Question: Why would an honest God want to ask that question from somebody whom He had predestined and pre-programmed to disobey Him?
 
Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Romans 11:28
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Please try to wrestle with the Scriptures if you really want to debate the sovereignity of man verses the sovereignity of God in salvation.
Okay, you have given us a list of scriptures; but what do those scriptures supposedly prove, and how? Are they supposed to prove that man is predestined? How? I don’t see that coming out of those scriptures. When you quote scripture, the burden is on you to analyze it, and prove how you derive your doctrine from it. Anybody can quote a bunch of irrelevant scriptures, and claim it proves their point, if they don’t have to give us their exegesis for it. When you quote scripture, you have to give us the analysis, otherwise it is just humbug.
 
The remnant chosen by grace; the elect of God.

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. - 2 Tim

God’s Sovereign Choice

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 9

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”
 
Guan,

When you are ready to discuss with substance, addressing actual Scriptures… then we can continue.
This is the problem, is it not, 2nd? You know that the Catholic faith is not confined to the Scriptures, yet you wish to confine someone who represents the faith to the scriptures.

If you wish to learn about the Catholic faith, you may wish to consider opening the parameters, so at least you can understand the opposing point of view.

The Catholic understanding of free will is predicated upon the Apostolic Teaching with regard to the nature and Fall of man. I have stated this three times now, and you have ignored it each time. I have also asked you three times to respond to my question about Cornelius. Do you not know how to answer? Has the book of Acts been removed from your canon also?

If you wish me to repost the scriptures that reflect the Catholic understanding about free will, I can do that, but it seems to me that, if you are going to ignore what I have posted so far on this matter, it would not be a very good use of my time. 🤷
 
The Catholic Faith never claims to be a faith based of Scripture alone. Did you want to try to defend the faith of free wll of man in salvation within the Scriptures. . . .
Yes, we want your proof from within scripture that man is predestined. I am waiting. :whistle: :yawn:
 
The Remnant Chosen by Grace; the Elect of God part 2.

Rom 11

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8
 
I have a question to ask you Adam. Have a careful read of this scripture, and then answer the question that follows:

Luke 6:46 “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

Question: Why would an honest God want to ask that question from somebody whom He had predestined and pre-programmed to disobey Him?
Please see OP for my reason to not respond to you.
 
Sure, Adam and Eve had a free will to obey God prior to the fall. Yet God allowed Adam and Eve to fall anyways. Do you think God knew Adam and Eve would be tempted by Satan prior to placing the tree of knowledge in the garden? Do you think God knew that Eve would eat the forbidden fruit before creating the tree of knowledge? Please answer my questions if you would like to continue our discussion.
Yes He did. What conclusion do you intend to draw from that?
 
If my filters are are contamnitated it certainally is not of the world …
You are right. I should have been more specific. In your case, the filters have been contaminated by years of Protestant Theology. However, they may have been contaminated before that. It may be that you left Catholicism in the first place because you thought you could pick and choose?
Code:
You know actually I am not a Catholic like you. Because **I sense no emotions towards anything **but critism, my thinks brother I sense a whole lot of anger coming from your post. But thats just my humble oponion! I am a born again Catholic.
Catholicism, as I have told you before, is not a matter of emotions and feelings. It is a matter of Truth. that Truth was committed to the Church by Christ Himself, and has been guarded by His HS. Most of us that struggle with Catholic doctrine do so on an emotional level as well as intellectual, but one is not a Catholic because one “feels like it”.
I am glad that Adam is my brother in Christ and so are you dear Mr. gee, even tho you like to be at odds with anyone who doesn’t agree with your way.
Tweety, I rejoice in my siblings also. 👍 Actually, you really don’t know anything about “my way” as I have not shared much of it here on CAF at all. 😉
Code:
 So Brother keep the attacks coming, I am sure you can come up with a lot more before Jesus comes back to judge us all.
Tweety, I hope at some point you come to realize that someone taking offense at something you have done is not the same as “attacking” you as a person.
 
This is the problem, is it not, 2nd? You know that the Catholic faith is not confined to the Scriptures, yet you wish to confine someone who represents the faith to the scriptures.

If you wish to learn about the Catholic faith, you may wish to consider opening the parameters, so at least you can understand the opposing point of view.

The Catholic understanding of free will is predicated upon the Apostolic Teaching with regard to the nature and Fall of man. I have stated this three times now, and you have ignored it each time. I have also asked you three times to respond to my question about Cornelius. Do you not know how to answer? Has the book of Acts been removed from your canon also?

If you wish me to repost the scriptures that reflect the Catholic understanding about free will, I can do that, but it seems to me that, if you are going to ignore what I have posted so far on this matter, it would not be a very good use of my time. 🤷
This is not an unreasonable request…

Guanophore,

Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will and God’s sovereignity in salvation. I don’t want to distort the Catholic view, I just want to understand the official Catholic view. Here’s your chance to show all us non-Catholic Christians that the Catholic Church is truly the One True Church that cannot error in the Faith in regards to doctrine.
 
You are right. I should have been more specific. In your case, the filters have been contaminated by years of Protestant Theology. However, they may have been contaminated before that. It may be that you left Catholicism in the first place because you thought you could pick and choose?

Catholicism, as I have told you before, is not a matter of emotions and feelings. It is a matter of Truth. that Truth was committed to the Church by Christ Himself, and has been guarded by His HS. Most of us that struggle with Catholic doctrine do so on an emotional level as well as intellectual, but one is not a Catholic because one “feels like it”.

Tweety, I rejoice in my siblings also. 👍 Actually, you really don’t know anything about “my way” as I have not shared much of it here on CAF at all. 😉

Tweety, I hope at some point you come to realize that someone taking offense at something you have done is not the same as “attacking” you as a person.
Hi guan, I think you should leave Tweeny alone. You are wasting your energy for nothing. She is not who or what she claims to be. I believe I know who she is, and what she is up to; but I am not saying anything further. Best to ignore her, and only respond to her if there is a likelihood that others might be misled by something she says.
 
According to Scripture truth, Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which God declared to be good.
True.
After the fall, all mankind are created in the image of fallen Adam according to Scripture revelation.
False, and absolute rubbish. No scripture to support that. Man did not stop being in the image of God after the Fall. The “image” never changed. There is no scripture to support that.
Do you think mankind was basically good after the fall, …
Yes.
… able to live a life pleasing to God?
Yes, when that knowledge was revealed to him, and he had the will and desire to fulfil it.
 
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