"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[zerinus]

Adam and Eve had the free will choice and ability to obey the command of God to not to eat from the tree of knowledge. Their wills were not fallen like ours.

That is absolute garbage. There is no such thing as “fallen will”. A will is a will. Where is the scripture that says that? The temptation of the devil may be too strong for someone to resist it, but that does mean that he does not have the will to resist it. Those are two different things.

 

[peary]

Quote:
Originally Posted by peary

The question that Adam is asking is a trick question, one that is often used to hammer an opponent. No matter which answer is given, it is wrong. The answer is not a yes - no answer. My answer was simply playing along with Adam and his game.

Our faith is grace based. Works of man do not save. Works performed through grace perfect our salvation. The initial “work” that merits our initial justification is Christ’s work on the cross. I am pretty certain that this is the 100% works that Adam was referring to but if I answered yes, he would have pointed to a faith based righteousness. Can you see how he is attempting to confuse and distort the issue?

No

…uh, this is not my post. Why is my name attached to it?

 

[zerinus]

Guan,

Please take the time and explain your view and the Catholic view of free will …

I don’t know the “Catholic” view of freewill; but I can tell you the scriptural view. The scriptural view is that God has made man free to obey God or disobey Him, as expressed in these verses in the Bible:

Joshua 24:

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

1 Kings 18:

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

… and God’s sovereignity in salvation.

I have no idea what you mean by “sovereignty in salvation”. It is not a scriptural expression, and has no scriptural connection that I can tell. You need to explain what that means before an answer can be given.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Yes, we want your proof from within scripture that man is predestined. I am waiting. :yawn:

Psalm 65
Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

 

[zerinus]

Please respond since you believe the Catholic Church cannot error in doctrine.

Just gave you a scriptural response. Care to answer?

 

[2nd_Adam]

We are saved by Grace alone. We are justified through our works.

I believe this is what you posted in regards to thread topic. And my response to your statement is here:

Thank you for posting your beliefs. How do you reconcile your post with the following Bible verses? The Apostle Paul seems to be teaching that we are justified by faith and justified by his grace as a gift.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Rom 3 - 4

 

[zerinus]

Psalm 65
Praise waiteth for thee, O God, in Sion: and unto thee shall the vow be performed.
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
Iniquities prevail against me: as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away.

That does not mean that man has no freewill. God purges away our sins by the Atonement of Jesus Christ through to our faith and repentance. That is the message of the Old and New Testaments. It doesn’t say that He purges our sins in spite of ourselves.

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

The Psalms are written in the language of poetry and song, and they do not lend themselves to drawing precise theological conclusions. “Caused” here does not mean “Made to” in the sense of “against their will”. It means “invited” or “made it possible for them” to, as other translations have rendered the same verse. Here are some examples:

New International Version (NIV):

Blessed are those you choose
and bring near to live in your courts!
We are filled with the good things of your house,
of your holy temple.

New American Standard Bible (NASB):

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

The Message (MSG):

Blessed are the chosen! Blessed the guest
at home in your place!

Amplified Bible (AMP):

Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.

New Living Translation (NLT):

What joy for those you choose to bring near,
those who live in your holy courts.
What festivities await us
inside your holy Temple.

English Standard Version (ESV):

Blessed is the one you choose and bring near,
to dwell in your courts!
We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house,
the holiness of your temple!

Contemporary English Version (CEV):

You bless your chosen ones,
and you invite them
to live near you
in your temple.
We will enjoy your house,
the sacred temple.

New Century Version (NCV):

Happy are the people you choose
and invite to stay in your court.
We are filled with good things in your house,
your holy Temple.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB):

How happy is the one You choose
and bring near to live in Your courts!
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
the holiness of Your temple.

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV):

Blessed are those you choose
and bring near to worship you.
You bring us into the courtyards of your holy temple.
There in your house we are filled with all kinds of good things.

New International Version - UK (NIVUK):

Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts! We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple.

Today’s New International Version (TNIV):

Blessed are those you choose
and bring near to live in your courts!
We are filled with the good things of your house,
of your holy temple.

The word “Caused” in the KJV does not mean “forced” or “made to against their will”. Here are some examples:

1 Kings 20:

33 … and they said, Thy brother Ben-hadad. Then he said, Go ye, bring him. Then Ben-hadad came forth to him; and he caused him to come up into the chariot.

Job 30:

22 Thou liftest me up to the wind; thou causest me to ride upon it, and dissolvest my substance.

Proverbs 7:

21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.

Jeremiah 7:

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Jeremiah 29:

31 Send to all them of the captivity, saying, Thus saith the Lord concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite; Because that Shemaiah hath prophesied unto you, and I sent him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie

These verses resemble more the context that you were quoting from, but none of them mean “forced,” or “made against their will”:

Jeremiah 30:

21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord.

Psalms 143:

8 Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee.

Ezekiel 20:

4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers

Jeremiah 30:

21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord.

Ezekiel 9:

1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

 

[Rocket_Man]

That does not mean that man has no freewill. God purges away our sins by the Atonement of Jesus Christ through to our faith and repentance. That is the message of the Old and New Testaments. It doesn’t say that He purges our sins in spite of ourselves.

The Psalms are written in the language of poetry and song, and they do not lend themselves to drawing precise theological conclusions. “Caused” here does not mean “Made to” in the sense of “against their will”. It means “invited” or “made it possible for them” to, as other translations have rendered the same verse. Here are some examples:

choosest, and causest

 

[zerinus]

Please see OP for my reason to not respond to you.

The reason why you don’t want to reply to my posts is because you can’t, simple as that. You have no answer to give; a sitting duck; dead as a door nail!—And you don’t have the honesty to admit it either; so what other options do you have left?

 

[zerinus]

choosest, and causest

Correct answer already given. No additional comment required.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Correct answer already given. No additional comment required.

No answer given, so I chosest you no more.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The reason why you don’t want to reply to my posts is because you can’t, simple as that. You have no answer to give; a sitting duck; dead as a door nail!—And you don’t have the honesty to admit it either; so what other options do you have left?

Mormonism is not the Apostolic Faith, nor is it the gospel proclaimed by the Apostle Paul. Historic Christianity is not apostate. I don’t want to give you a false assurance that you know the living historic Jesus Christ. It’s funny you like to stalk me.

 

[zerinus]

Mormonism is not the Apostolic Faith, nor is it the gospel proclaimed by the Apostle Paul. Historic Christianity is not apostate. I don’t want to give you a false assurance that you know the living historic Jesus Christ. It’s funny you like to stalk me.

Mormonism is true. It is God’s only true Church. Your Calvinist religion is a fake. It is a false imitation of the real thing. It doesn’t even come close!

 

[zerinus]

No answer given, so I chosest you no more.

Me too. Have a nice day. By!

 

[Rocket_Man]

Mormonism is true. It is God’s only true Church. Your Calvinist religion is a fake. It is a false imitation of the real thing. It doesn’t even come close!

Usually imitations are false and are close to the real thing. Joseph Smith was a fake.

 

[tweetymom]

Hi guan, I think you should leave Tweeny alone. You are wasting your energy for nothing. She is not who or what she claims to be. I believe I know who she is, and what she is up to; but I am not saying anything further. Best to ignore her, and only respond to her if there is a likelihood that others might be misled by something she says.

And thank you too Mr.Zee. I am glad you think you know who I am, and what I am supposedly up to. I don’t recall saying unkind about you, so ignore me if you like!

 

[tweetymom]

You are right. I should have been more specific. In your case, the filters have been contaminated by years of Protestant Theology. However, they may have been contaminated before that. It may be that you left Catholicism in the first place because you thought you could pick and choose?

Catholicism, as I have told you before, is not a matter of emotions and feelings. It is a matter of Truth. that Truth was committed to the Church by Christ Himself, and has been guarded by His HS. Most of us that struggle with Catholic doctrine do so on an emotional level as well as intellectual, but one is not a Catholic because one “feels like it”.

Tweety, I rejoice in my siblings also. Actually, you really don’t know anything about “my way” as I have not shared much of it here on CAF at all.

Tweety, I hope at some point you come to realize that someone taking offense at something you have done is not the same as “attacking” you as a person.

I really love it when you are saying whatever you want to call it. I told you I am not offended. I can tell you have no emotions, but hey its ok with me. So once again thank you.

 

[guanophore]

According to Scripture truth, Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which God declared to be good. After the fall, all mankind are created in the image of fallen Adam according to Scripture revelation.

Can you please show where you find this in scripture? This is a significant departure from the Apostolic teaching. I am still reeling in shock somewhat over this. I have never heard this before.

Do you think mankind was basically good after the fall, able to live a life pleasing to God?

Yes, mankind is basically good after the Fall. He is made in the image and likeness of God.

No, he is not able, without grace, to lead a life pleasing to God because he is wounded by original sin. The sin nature makes his heart turn away from God, and he tends to live in the flesh, from which it is impossible to please God.

You did not answer my question. At what point was Cornelius born again? Was he pleasing God in the flesh?

The Catholic understanding of free will is based upon our understanding of the Fall, and the effects of original sin.

 

[PRmerger]

There are many people who know what I know that did not have the Catholic Baptism. I am working around them everyday. So I can’t necessarily agree with you that my enlightenment is from my baptism.

You were poorly catechized, Rocket. The CC does not state that you have to have a “Catholic baptism” in order to be validly baptized.

And, again, since you WERE baptized, how can you know that your enlightenment is not from your baptism? How would you know any differently?

I also recieved the Sacraments of Confirmation and the Eucharist. Neither of these enlightened me spiritually in anyway.

***You have no idea ***the effect they had on you. In fact, it may be because of these Sacraments that you’re here on the CAFs today!

My whole family was raised in Catholic Schools and in the Catholic Church. Six of my seven siblings including my parents have left the Catholic Church

That is sad, indeed. Catechesis, esp. in Catholic schools, has been woefully impoverished.

However, the fact that Her Shepherds did a poor job in catechesis is irrelevant to the Truth of what She proclaims.

and have discovered Jesus Christ outside of the CC.

But, sadly, now have no One Flesh Union with Jesus Christ. They left a marriage with Him for a platonic relationship with Him.
.

I would go to confession and make up stuff to tell the priest just because. He would tell me to say something like two Hail Mary’s and two Our Father’s. It was the same routine time and time again. The only thing that would change is the number of times I had to say the same prayers.

Who was at fault here? It would seem that you were seated at the Banquet and then decided to grab at the fake fruit centerpieces.

If your saying that you shouldn’t use emotions as a measuring stick for truth, I agree. But if your saying we shouldn’t rejoice, dance, and praise Him, then tell me why?

I’m saying the former, of course!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
According to Scripture truth, Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which God declared to be good. After the fall, all mankind are created in the image of fallen Adam according to Scripture revelation.

Can you please show where you find this in scripture? This is a significant departure from the Apostolic teaching. I am still reeling in shock somewhat over this. I have never heard this before.

Really, you never read that in Scripture? It’s in Genesis. Please try looking for it.