R
Rocket_Man
Guest
I lied, because that’s was my mind set. I was spiritually dead.
"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.
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R
Rocket_Man
Guest
I read it but didn’t understand it. Is this kind of like when the gas light come on and you don’t know how many miles you can go until you run out?Why did you leave off the very next sentence, Rocket?
“It only remains for us to ascertain with clearness the manner in which this preservative influence against relapse into mortal sin is exerted.”
.
I never once learned anything of Him through communion. Never!
None of these sacraments meant anything because I was spiritually dead.
The church is not speaking of magic rather the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that better than magic?
R
Rocket_Man
Guest
I was not increasing towards Him. I was increasing away from Him into a widening world of sin.One cannot make a judgement about whether a person acts like a “Catholic” or acts with an “increasing work of the Spirit” unless one could know what they’d be like if they weren’t.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
When do Catholics recieve these gifts? How come my family didn’t recieve anything like them until they left the church, repented of their sins, and believed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior as revealed to them through the Living Word of God?
The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.
Wisdom is that gift by which we recognize the emptiness of earthly things. By it we come to regard God and spiritual things as of the highest good.
Understanding is that gift by which we are enabled to recognize the true Catholic teaching, and to detect false doctrines.
The gift of counsel helps us to discover the will of God under difficult circumstances.
Fortitude is the gift by which we are strengthened under trials, to do God’s will.
The gift of knowledge enables us to grasp the teaching of the Church, to know God and Jesus Christ Whom He sent.
Piety is that gift by which we love God as our Father, ever striving to do His will.
The fear of the Lord makes us dread sin as the greatest of all evils, and enables us to quell fear of man and human respect.
I was confirmed by Bishop Frank Greteman who was related to my Grandma.
Z
zerinus
Guest
He didn’t destroy “all of humanity”. According to your own quote, He saved Noah. So why did He saved Noah and not the rest? The scripture tells you:
Genesis 6:
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
He was spared because he was righteous. The rest were destroyed because they were wicked. They had exercised their right of choice to be wicked, whereas Noah had exercised his right of choice to be righteous. Each to his own. They were destroyed for the same reason that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, while Lot was spared; or that Pharaoh and his entourage were destroyed, while Moses and his people were spared. Throughout history God has destroyed the wicked and spared the righteous, as Peter tells us:
2 Peter 2:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
And how does that prove your point? If man was inherently evil and totally “depraved,” nobody would have been righteous, and everyone would have been destroyed.
Z
zerinus
Guest
For how long do you intend to take people for a fool, and insult their intelligence with this kind of talk?Oh come on, do you really want me to do your homework assignment? If you can’t find Scripture revelation that after the fall the rest of the mankind was made in the image of Adam, I will help you tomorrow morning. I like it when you guys play Protestant Christians… searching the Scriptures for truth.Happy hunting for truth.
G
guanophore
Guest
I understand what you are saying, and I had the same experience. However, the sacraments are not “magic” and do not work independently from good spiritual formation. As a cradle Catholic, I was not taught how to have a personal prayer life, how to make Jesus Lord in my life, or how to read the bible. Ultimately, I learned these things when I departed the chuch in a state of resentment, distrust, and downright digust. It took me many years to realize that I had, indeed, been sealed by the Spirit, despite my inability to comprehend it at the tine, God always leads us un truimph, and eventually I found my way back to the Church He founded. With me, I bring all the gifts I received trhough those ecclesial communities in which I sojourned.
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guanophore
Guest
This is a good point. I also did not benefit from the sacramental life because I was improperly disposed to receive grace. I think Rocket lied at confession just to have some reason to get it over with, though. It did not sound like he was really trying to avoid confessing any sins, but just could not think of any, and understood he was supposed to, so made it up. This clearly is a case of poor spiritual formation. A person with an unformed conscience is often unable to discern when one’s conduct and attitute of heart are opposed to God.
Please, let us not here fall into the language and disdain used by the enemies of the Church! No Catholic receives a “wafer”! It is the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord. If a person receives Him improperly disposed, He will have limited effect, or even worse, if a person receives in an unworthy manner, one will profane the Body and Blood. One of the reasons I think I had such a hard time experiencing Christ in the Eucharist after I returned is that I had, for so many years, received profanely, and after that, disdained the sacrament all together.
It is very possible, however, that this was what he was given to believe.
I get the feeling he is disappointed and disenchanted with Catholicism, since he had a living experience of Christ (that for which his soul was longing) after he left.
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guanophore
Guest
I am with you there. I profaned the sacraments for the same reason. I did not even realize that I had driven sanctifying grace out of my soul. Part of it was anger and hardness of heart, and part of it was poor spiritual formation.
I don’t think so…
One thing I do know is that a person with poor spiritual formation has a very difficult time discerning the things of God. Even a sincere person can ge duped by the world, the flesh,and the devil.
Perhaps nothing of which you were conscious.
It would be presumptuous to assume that God is not at work in us and upon us, drawing us to His grace.
This describes the condition of a person who is not in a state of grace. This can happen to the most devout and spritually alive Catholic (although it is much less likely). Anyone can fall from grace.
We had the impression that you expected them to work in a magical fashion.
It is a shame that a person who sincerely desired God was unable to be connected with Him. It seems to me to be a case of poor instruction,and poor soul tending.
T
tweetymom
Guest
Oh really,There’s a story about a Catholic writer, Walker Percy, who was a curmudgeonly old soul. Apparently, after an encounter with a snippy woman in which he was gruff–and, perhaps rude, boorish, curt–this woman sniffed, “And you call yourself a Catholic!” to which he replied, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”
One cannot make a judgement about whether a person acts like a “Catholic” or acts with an “increasing work of the Spirit” unless one could know what they’d be like if they weren’t.
G
guanophore
Guest
I guess that 2nd imagines that he has “proved” that man was not created in God’s image after the Fall by showing the effects of sin on unregenerate man. However, this does not change the Apostolic Teaching. What 2nd does admit is that God has always saved a remnant. Even before the story of Noah, there are men who walk uprightly in His sight, which he seems to indicate is impossible. Enoch was transformed (did not die) but was taken up body and soul “because he walked with God”. According to Adam’s theology, this was impossible.
And if everyone is evil continually, then who are the just and godly?
I have to wait for this answer too, as he has triumphantly proclaimed that he has “proved” that man is not made in the image of God. It sounds like, according to 2nd, sin was more powerful than God, and was able to " unmake" what God had made in His image and declared “good”.
I think that 2nd has mid-school aged kids. Maybe that is why he is so condescending and pedantic with us at times?
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes. This is a condition of anyone who is not in a state of grace. Sin pulls against us like a rip tide, and we must constantly be moving the other way, or we are swept out into the sea of sin.
All the gifts are received in baptism when we are sealed in the promised HS. At confirmation, these gifts are to be released in our lives as we take on personal responsibility for our service to God and to the Church. Living in sin squelches the spirit within us, so that the gifts do not function as God intends.
It sounds like you are now in a state in which you are able to experience your rich spiritual heritage, is that right?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Alas, you are like a wife whose husband has spread before her rose petals, wine, music, candlelight…yet who turns away in disgust at this Marital Embrace.
Perhaps this wife’s frigidity is a result of her childhood–I couldn’t say. However, she really doesn’t know what she’s missing, does she?
sigh!
I
izoid
Guest
I feel compelled to answer this post of yours, even though you failed to answer my post on baptism. I would still like it if you would review the verses I provided you and help me understand what they mean.
I appears to me that you measure a church, or denomination, based upon the actions of its members. You denigrate Catholicism because of the actions of some of Her members while praising your own church. The Church is in NO WAY responsible for YOUR or your families sinful behavior. It is ludicrous to claim otherwise.
Since you like to base legitimacy of aChurch upon the actions of its members how about I share some of my experiences with you?
- The church where I served as a pastor, very conservative fundamental church. The senior pastors son, who was a dedicated member and active in the youth ministry, was arrested for DUI. A member came to me on Sunday morning, in tears, stating that she did not want to be married anymore and did mot want to go home with her husband. A member of the staff was stealing money from the church. Based on your evaluative criteria, is this a legitimate church?
- A hyper Calvinist church that I attended. The music pastor had an affair with a member of the choir. The leadership was unloving towards people and hostile to beliefs that were not in line with their own. Leadership would publicly reprimand women as being in sin if the spoke during SS. Is this a legitimate church?
- A Southern Baptist church we spent a short time at. THe music pastor had an affair with a choir member. Is this a legitimate church?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
God spared the remnant for His own good pleasure, His own glory and our good. Abel was part of the remnant chosen by grace. Why do you think God found favor with Abel and not Cain? Please read Hebrews 11 for Scripture proof that Abel was part of the remnant chosen by grace. In addition, you will find other members of the remnant church in Hebrews 11. In contrast, Cain was the first born to Adam and Eve. You see the effects of fallen human nature and sin in the murder of Abel by Cain. So, what were you saying, that mankind was basically good, so good that after the fall we go to Genesis 6 and God wipes out the entire fallen world in righteous judgement for mankind’s goodness. Of course God saved Him remnant chosen by grace in the worldwide judgement for sin in the Ark? So, what’s one the frist accounts of the remnant after the flood? Noah got drunk leading to additional depravity and sin against God.
**The goodness of man appears to be the driving force of Catholic Theology in contrast to the depravity of man in Reformed Theology. **
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord - Genesis 6
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9
God’s Righteousness Upheld
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”
But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
No One Is Righteous - Rom 3
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 7
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2nd_Adam
Guest
:knight1::slapfight: :blackeye::flowers::hug1::harp:Genesis 5
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Rom 5
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all…
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Paul
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guanophore
Guest
Both Cain and Abel were given divine revelation about God’s requirements. Abel followed them, and Cain chose to do what Cain wanted to do. Yes, in the murder we see the effects of original sin. This is not “evidence” that Cain and Abel were “unmade” in the image of God. It means that their image was marred, so that they can no longer reflect God as He intended. However, since the beginning of time, men are saved by grace, through faith. So was Abel saved. He chose, in faith, to obey God’s commandment.
As attested by your own verses above, God did NOT wipe out the whole world. Noah was not less “fallen” because he was saved.
I am sorry, 2nd, I can make no sense of this. Can you reword it?
Testimony that he was no less “fallen” than those who perished.
No, I think not. I think the “driving force” in both is Grace. I did not say the “goodness of man”. You misunderstood my reference to being made in the image and likeness of God. God created man, and declared him “good”. This is not from man, but from God.
Why do you suppose that is, 2nd? Why was God grieved?
This is a very good example. the Fall makes the human heart “sick”. It is not destroyed, or “unmade” from God’s image. It is in a fallen state. The image of God has been wounded. However, God did not create man to be this way, and Jesus heals this, so that we an once again manifest the image of God.
I think you may have misunderstood my belief that we are made in the image and likeness of God to mean that we are inherintly righteous, which is not the case.
If you are honest, 2nd., you will go back the psalm and read the second half. There you will see, when you read it in context, that these unrighteous are being compared to the Righteous.
This is a description of the two natures in man. One tends toward the first Adam, the other toward the 2nd. they exist together, until we are delivered from this earthly tent.
G
guanophore
Guest
So, you are saying that this means that the image of God in which Adam was created was “unmade”, so that when Adam procreated according to God’s plan, he created some sort of mutation on God’s plan?
I mean, if God created Adam in His image, then gave Adam the power to procreate, how did the image get lost?
Part of the “image of God” is to procreate in his own likeness, is the point of the passage. Man has the power of procreation, after the nature he was given by God.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I never said that fallen mankind was not made in the image of God. All human beings are made in the image of God in a fallen way. But none of us are made in the image of God like Adam. We are made in the image of fallen Adam, just like Seth.
Genesis 5
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Please consider Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15, and study about federal headship, and representation of the first Adam and the 2nd Adam. We are either united to the first Adam or the 2nd Adam. The remant chosen by grace are united to the 2nd Adam by the sovereign grace of God through faith alone. Please note my screen name is pointing all to the real 2nd Adam, whom we are united together in the 2nd Adam through faith alone.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Rom 5
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all…
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
Paul
1 Cor 15
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