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PRmerger
Guest
I’ve never heard that we’re made in the image of the fallen Adam either.
Can you please supply the chapter and verse, Adam?
"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.
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Can you please supply the chapter and verse, Adam?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Ori
If mankind was basically good after the fall, why did God destroy all of humanity with the flood and kept a very small remnant for Himself?
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord - Genesis 6
If mankind was basically good after the fall, why did God destroy all of humanity with the flood and kept a very small remnant for Himself?
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Rocket_Man
Guest
Is the catechism one of the seven sacraments?
My brother who was also baptized catholic lived on the streets of Portland for years selling his body to other men for money so he could support his heroin habit. Your saying if he had been properly catechized this may have not happened? No way…Not going to believe it sir.
My 17 year old daughter who is a high school senior this year came home earlier Wednesday night from seeing three of her catholic friends that came home from college for Thanksgiving. She was disappointed because she thought they were going to have a girl/girl get-together as they had talked about earlier in the week. Well, it turn out that these catholic friends wanted to go out drinking instead ( they are not legal age) so my daughter just came home.
From where I come from, rural midwest U.S. most of the catholics live together on one side of the by the parish church. These folks usually have the best upkept houses, yards, and shiney cars. Yet, some of these same folk are up at the local bar on the weekend getting smashed and out looking for sex, just like those that don’t know God. What is it inside a man that want’s to keep the outside appearance clean but not clean on the inside?
Where is all this spiritual enlightment and oneness with the Lord that you advertise?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Oh come on, do you really want me to do your homework assignment? If you can’t find Scripture revelation that after the fall the rest of the mankind was made in the image of Adam, I will help you tomorrow morning. I like it when you guys play Protestant Christians… searching the Scriptures for truth.
Happy hunting for truth.
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t know what you mean.
No. I did not say that at all. You’re not saying that your church doesn’t have any sinners in it, are you?
What I am saying is that you did not know the faith you left. Example: you thought the Catholic Church only recognizes Catholic Baptisms as valid.
The CC is not a hotel for sinners, but a hospital for sinners, Rocket.
As the wags like to say, when you find that perfect church you go right ahead and join it. Then it won’t be perfect anymore.
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PRmerger
Guest
You are dishonorable, Adam. This is the last time I ask you to back up your absurd claims and you provide us with nothing.Oh come on, do you really want me to do your homework assignment? If you can’t find Scripture revelation that after the fall the rest of the mankind was made in the image of Adam, I will help you tomorrow morning. I like it when you guys play Protestant Christians… searching the Scriptures for truth.
Everything you say now to me is suspect.
You do not know your faith. You do not know the Scriptures. You do not know the Catholic faith. You do not know the writings of Augustine. You do not know Martin Luther. You do not know that which the Magisterium has proclaimed. You do not know Pope Benedict’s writings.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Why does that make me dishonrable since I know where that is taught in Scripture? If you can’t find it, I will post if for you in the morning. The Catholic Faith isn’t really about Scripture revelation alone; therefore, Protestants know Scripture better than Catholics in general. You guys don’t have to attack me personally. Guan said that mankind was basically good after the fall, and I posted Scripture revelaiton to show that Guan’s view was incorrect.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
I’m not looking for the perfect church, just one that does all that it claims. And yours is lacking any credibilty in all that she advertises. I and my family are the evidence.As the wags like to say, when you find that perfect church you go right ahead and join it. Then it won’t be perfect anymore.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Whom was this fallen Adam made in the image of? While Catholic acknowledge original sin and its consequences, we don’t endorse total depravity. Man still has his free will and intellect (again basic equipment like a nose, given to all human beings) but he now has a tendency of evil. This tendency of evil doesn’t destroy his freedom. Could’ve man been able to live a life pleasing to God all by himself? No, and that’s not what the Church has ever taught. God must intervene and this grace is unmerited. Before Christ, we see examples of Godly man such as Abraham, David, and Noah.
To better understand the Catholic position, please read this from the Catechism and this from Catholic Encyclopedia.
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PRmerger
Guest
Where does the CC claim that baptized Catholic school girls will never try to drink illegally?
Where does the CC claim that baptized Catholic men will not sell their bodies for drugs?
What the CC does claim is that it teaches the fullness of Truth. That its members are sinners does not nullify the Church’s teachings.
Heck, even the Perfect Teacher couldn’t make one of his best friends stay with him!
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PRmerger
Guest
Incidentally, does your church have any equivalents to Mother Teresa? Or Maximilian Kolbe? Or Francis of Assisi?
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
These people aren’t following the Church’s teaching on faith/morals and furthermore, the Church has always been a hospital for sinners, not a place free from all sin and sinners. Jesus Himself had fellowship with tax collectors, prostitutes and the destitute, and died for all humanity. If you truly want to grade how a Church is, why not the ones that actually followed its teaching like St. Francis Assisi, St. Clare, St. Luke, St. Augustine, etc.?
Baptism doesn’t mean a ticket to Heaven. It is up to the soul to respond to God’s unmerited graces and live out their Baptismal vows made by their guardians (which were later affirmed at Confirmation as well).
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
You are putting words in PR’s mouth. She called you out on your lack of Catholic knowledge and you decry her for claiming you don’t know what’s in your interpretation of Scripture. Hardly the same thing.
As for the claim that since Protestant is based on Scripture alone and therefore, they know it better is bogus. Your premise is true (yes Protestant claim Sola Scripture) and your second premise is true (yes, Catholic isn’t based only on Scripture but on Sacred Teaching as well Scripture) but the conclusion is false.
It seems to me your line of logic is the following:
Premise 1: Protestant claim Sola Scriptura
Second premise: Catholic don’t claim Sola Scriptura but still use Scripture and Sacred Tradition
Conclusion: Protestant know Scripture better than Catholics.
By saying this that since Catholics aren’t following Sola Scriptura, they are ignorant of it and since they don’t agree with your interpretation of Scripture, they must be ignorant due to being Catholics. The only conclusion I can see is that only those whom base their faith only to Scripture, they know it and must agree with you because your interpretation ARE Scripture. Only Calvinists know Scripture.
As you’ve implicitly acknowledged that Catholics do know Scripture–a simple reading of the CCC or writings from the saints would show you as such—we don’t agree with Sola Scriptura, a doctrine not taught by the Apostles or the Bible itself. Hence this is false.
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guanophore
Guest
No, I don’t read this in Gen. but that may be because I am not expecting to find it?
Do you honestly believe that the Fall “unmade” man from the image of God?
If this is true, then such a theology is very inconsistent with your previous statements about sovereignty. It would mean that man was sovereign over God’s creation, and that man was able to “unmake” what God had made good!
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guanophore
Guest
A just question. He did this because man, in his fallen state, does not fulfill the purpose for which God created Him.
If everything about every man were evil, why did He spare even the remnant?
How is it that, after the Fall, Abel’s sacrifice pleased God, but Cain’s did not? if it was impossible for man to please God in His fallen state, why was the sacrifice accepted?
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guanophore
Guest
Are you trying to prove the point? If so, you succeeded.
Absolutely! Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it. There are no guarantees, of course, but a solid spiritual formation can prevent a lot of problems of this kind.
This is sad. I feel for your daughter, and for those lost young ladies. It appears that they are poorly catechized as well.
Don’t you think that is part of human nature? There, but for the grace of God, would we go as well.
I hope you don’t think that we believe that all those who are baptized Catholic walk with God!
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Rocket_Man
Guest
What the CC does sell is that through the recieving of these sacraments that I recieved, there should have been an increasing work of the spirit and the work of sancitifing grace in union with an increasing knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Instead, what I experienced was no increase rather a dive into sin head first.
According to the doctrine of baptism:
“We receive the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit when we are infused with sanctifying grace, the life of God within us—as, for example, when we receive a sacrament worthily. These seven gifts help us to live a Christian life.”
According to the doctrine of confirmation:
- an increase of sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”
- a special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
- an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.
None of these worked, instead what worked for me was Jesus Christ, that I learned of through reading the Bible.
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PRmerger
Guest
There’s a story about a Catholic writer, Walker Percy, who was a curmudgeonly old soul. Apparently, after an encounter with a snippy woman in which he was gruff–and, perhaps rude, boorish, curt–this woman sniffed, “And you call yourself a Catholic!” to which he replied, “My dear, you should imagine what I would be like were I not a Catholic.”
One cannot make a judgement about whether a person acts like a “Catholic” or acts with an “increasing work of the Spirit” unless one could know what they’d be like if they weren’t.
T
TheosisM
Guest
Did you earlier say that you lied during Confession? If so, that provides a little insight into how you approached at least one of the sacraments.
What the Catholic Church “sells” is that the sacraments are ways that we participate in the life of Jesus Christ. Grace is imparted through the sacraments, however if we are not responding in faith (when we achieve the age to do so), and understanding the sacramental life of the Church, then how can we expect to grow in our testimony of Jesus Christ? The sacraments are not magic spells. You can eat as many wafers as you want, but if you don’t believe in the Real Presence, among other things, the Eucharist has no effect.
From your posts, it seems as if you expect[ed] the sacraments to work in ways that Catholics simply don’t believe they do. And if you can cite your experience as evidence of the Catholic Church not doing what it claims (or what you believe it claims), then I and others can also cite our experiences as evidence of the fullness of truth found in the Church. We don’t expect all that are born and raised Catholic to remain so, nor do we expect everyone to respond in kindness to the claims of the Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
Why did you leave off the very next sentence, Rocket?
"It only remains for us to ascertain with clearness the manner in which this preservative influence against relapse into mortal sin is exerted."Source: here.
It seems that the CC does not make any claims at all about the sacraments being magical sources of transformation.
Here’s more of that quote, with better context:
As a union based upon love, the Holy Eucharist cleanses with its purifying flame the smallest stains which adhere to the soul, and at the same time serves as an effective prophylactic against grievous sin.** It only remains for us to ascertain with clearness the manner in which this preservative influence against relapse into mortal sin is exerted**. According to the teaching of the Roman Catechism, it is effected by the allaying of concupiscence, which is the chief source of deadly sin, particularly of impurity. **Therefore it is that spiritual writers recommend frequent Communion as the most effective remedy against impurity, since its powerful influence is felt even after other means have proved unavailing. ** (Source: ibid)
Yet you left the One Flesh Union, the purest, most intimate way to “learn” about Him.
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