"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Rocket_Man]

Mega Churches…what mega churches?

I believe it was you that shared your involvement in these church productions of selling God to the audience. These are seductive spirits and not of God. I am thankful you turned away from these type of churches. In small town USA in the everyday church, you will find mostly beggars showing other beggars where to find some bread without the other hand in their pocket.

Your entire testimony is based upon your feelings?

My testimony is not based upon my feeling. If I share my feelings with you because I write what my heart hears. How can you not read Psalms and see David’s heart crying out our Lord. Would you say also that David’s testimony was all feelings also?

BTW…are you, Adam and Ambassador the same person?

I do not know Adam, but I heard him rejoice giving glory to God when I told you all about my sinful life and repentance. He praised God just like the friends and neighbors had in the parable of the lost sheep. The reasons why people wouldn’t rejoice, is they were not called because they are not friends and neighbors of the one true Shepherd.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I just see you basing the reality of a situation upon your experience.

Earlier today, I called my sister Doris to talk about her experiences in the CC. She was in the CC until she was 29 years old. She was also spiritually dead, practicing the same religiosity she had been trained in from her youth. She only understood that Jesus had been delivered the keys to heaven and now she had to be good to earn the keys.

In her younger twenties, she was in a group of women at church that followed the apparitions of Mary. She used to carry rose pedals and cover her head with a hair bonnet while at Mass. Around this time she injured her leg and while shut in at home a rich man showed up to deliver to her a meal and asked her if anyone had ever told her about Jesus Christ. She thought this was really odd that a rich man would care enough to bring a meal, for in our CC every year it would publish a booklet for everyone to see with a listing by parish member, every child and adult, the total amount of their annual givings to the church. It was somewhere after, that she started to read her Catholic Bible and the beginning of her turn from the CC.

It was through reading the Bible that she learned of the great gift that God had given us through His Son, Jesus Christ. Thereafter, it became a struggle for her, because the more she learned of Him through His Word the more she started to question all the religion she had learned from childhood.

Soon after, at a local Right To Life meeting, she rose to her feet and boldly confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and only Him to be worshipped to the audience. The only thing she recieved back were many dropped jaws and condeming looks. She walked out of that meeting and looked into the sky and a cloud appeared above her that looked as a shape of a sheep.

A few weeks after that, she knew that she had to make a choice. She went to the church parking lot at night and fell on her knees and prayed. Then she got up and walked away and has never returned.

That’s only a quick review of her story, I thought I would share it with you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

(MORMOMINISM) That is just plain false. The righteous are spared for their righteousness, not because of an arbitrary decision by God. Noah was spared because he was righteous, the scriptures already cited. The same was true of Lot. Both the Old Testament account and Peter in the New Testament confirm that they were spared because they were found righteous. In the Old Testament Abraham remonstrates with God to spare the entire city for the sake of just a few righteous that may be found in it, and God agrees:

Biblical Christianity
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they (Mormons) may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - Rom 10

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1:16-17

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ

Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. - Philippians 3

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. - Rom 4

 

[izoid]

I believe it was you that shared your involvement in these church productions of selling God to the audience. These are seductive spirits and not of God. I am thankful you turned away from these type of churches. In small town USA in the everyday church, you will find mostly beggars showing other beggars where to find some bread without the other hand in their pocket.
This where you are somewhat unaware of what goes on in most protestant churches. The churches that I spoke of were not mega-churches. They ranged from 250 to 700 Sunday attendance. My experiences were similar whether I was in California, N.C or Arizona. THe focus is on the people, what will keep them happy and giving their money. Now, they do love God, there is no doubt, but the focus is not on Him on Sunday morning. It may appear to be but the preparation and execution are all man made. Look at your evangelism methods, they are simply modified sales training presentations. I will admit that this, the evangelism training, was not the case in the Hyper-Calvinist church I attended. They did not believe that were actually doing anything other than gathering the elect so their efforts were minimal.

My testimony is not based upon my feeling. If I share my feelings with you because I write what my heart hears. How can you not read Psalms and see David’s heart crying out our Lord. Would you say also that David’s testimony was all feelings also?
I would challenge you to see how your Christian baptism and confirmation prepared you for this moment. It is clear that once you were willing to hear, the Spirit was quite loud in His call to you. Is it possible that it was you and your lack of desire for Him that had kept you away previously?

I do not know Adam, but I heard him rejoice giving glory to God when I told you all about my sinful life and repentance. He praised God just like the friends and neighbors had in the parable of the lost sheep. The reasons why people wouldn’t rejoice, is they were not called because they are not friends and neighbors of the one true Shepherd.

Please know, I am very happy for you. You love God and desire to follow Him. I do feel sad that you are missing the fullness of what God has for you. I was once their too so I know what I am talking about.

 

[guanophore]

Earlier today, I called my sister Doris to talk about her experiences in the CC. She was in the CC until she was 29 years old. She was also spiritually dead, practicing the same religiosity she had been trained in from her youth. She only understood that Jesus had been delivered the keys to heaven and now she had to be good to earn the keys.

Yes, sadly I think there is a whole generation of American Roman Catholics who were very poorly catechized. The departures from what the Church believes and teaches by catechists did not affect the other Rites in the US, or even Latin Catholics outside the States, except in Latin America.

It was somewhere after, that she started to read her Catholic Bible and the beginning of her turn from the CC.

well, she was a step ahead of me! All I had was a KJB my Methodist grandmother gave me when I had first communion. I did not have any instruction in how to read it, so I started at Genesis,and quickly got bored!

It was through reading the Bible that she learned of the great gift that God had given us through His Son, Jesus Christ. Thereafter, it became a struggle for her, because the more she learned of Him through His Word the more she started to question all the religion she had learned from childhood.

I think this is a common experience, especially Catholics from that generation. as it turns out, the principles of what we were taught can be taught from the Bible, but the fact that they were not leaves many with the feeling they were duped, or lied to.

Soon after, at a local Right To Life meeting, she rose to her feet and boldly confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and only Him to be worshipped to the audience. The only thing she recieved back were many dropped jaws and condeming looks. She walked out of that meeting and looked into the sky and a cloud appeared above her that looked as a shape of a sheep.

there were probably some other things in betwen reading, and confessing, but it is very important to make a public statement of faith, even if those close to us are disappointed by it.

A few weeks after that, she knew that she had to make a choice. She went to the church parking lot at night and fell on her knees and prayed. Then she got up and walked away and has never returned.

That’s only a quick review of her story, I thought I would share it with you.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, her, Rocket. Are you suggesting that, because many of us were poorly formed in the faith, that the Church is not founded by Christ, or that He failed in His promise to preserve her in all Truth?

 

[zerinus]

I am sorry to hear that you are being misinformed by your religious book, but the word of God - *The Bible *- teaches that from beginning to end, salvation is entirely of the LORD. This includes election.

**The Testimony of Scripture **

I am sorry that you have been misled by your false Protestant traditions. Throughout the Bible it is taught that God chooses the righteous and rejects the wicked. The examples are too numerous to quote. I would have to quote you half the Bible. Here are a few (just from the New Testament):

1 Corinthians 6:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Ephesians 5:

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

James 1:

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 3:

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth” (Deut. 7:6). These words were originally spoken to the physical nation of Israel, because Israel served as a type and model of the entire Church of Jesus Christ. Therefore, just as God had an elect people in the Old Testament – through whom He purposed to bring the Savior into the world – He also has an elect people today. “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5).

I think you are mistaken about that. God chose the house of Israel because He loved their fathers, and therefore He chose their descendants after them:

Deuteronomy 4:

37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt

And why did He “loved their fathers”? Because they were righteous, and did what God commanded them to do:

Genesis 22:

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Abraham was chosen because of his righteousness; so was Noah, Moses, Enoch, Abel, Isaac, Jacob, and every other patriarch, prophet, Apostle and saint that has ever lived. And although the house of Israel were a chosen race because God loved their fathers, they still had to earn their reward through their own righteousness, otherwise they were not spared, but suffered the fate of the wicked whenever they transgressed.

Continued … /

 

[zerinus]

/…Continued

The interesting thing about these passages is that they both make it very clear that election is entirely “of grace” and not the result of works. In other words, God does not choose us based upon anything we do, or any personal virtue we possess.

I couldn’t disagree more.

Notice that in Deuteronomy 7, the very next line states, “The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you” (v. 7, 8a). Likewise, the very next line of Romans 11 tells us that since election is of grace, “then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work” (v. 6).

You are mixing up verses that have no relevance to each other. You are also quoting verses out of context. Deuteronomy 7:7–8 reads:

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

He chose them because He had made a covenant with their fathers that He would. But that did not mean that He chose them unconditionally. He chose them on condition of their righteousness. When they were wicked they were destroyed, as Jude says:

Jude 1:

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

As for the Romans, you are simply not understanding it correctly. Paul was referring to those who believed salvation came through observing the Law of Moses alone, without faith in Jesus Christ. That is what he means by “works” and by “grace”. It does not mean that you don’t have to do anything at all to be saved.

2 Tim. 1:9 states that God “hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” This passage, in addition to affirming that salvation is “not according to our works,” also informs us that we were saved according to God’s “own purpose and grace,” and that this grace was actually given to us in Christ Jesus – “before the world began!”

In other words, the very fact that election took place in eternity proves that it could not possibly have been based upon anything that we will perform in time. This is made even more explicit in Romans 9, where the apostle Paul – (speaking of Jacob and Esau) – explains that God’s choice among them took place at a time when “the children, being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, in order that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (vv. 11, 12).

The rest of the Bible disagrees with what you are saying. If Paul says one thing, and the rest of the Bible says something different, the most likely explanation must be that you haven’t understood what Paul is saying correctly. Protestants have only Paul to support what they are saying. Their doctrines are entirely derived from Paul. They don’t stop to think that if the rest of the Bible disagrees with what they teach, maybe there is something wrong with how they are understanding Paul.

Does Sovereign Election Make God Unjust?

Of course it would make God unjust, if He arbitrarily saved some and damned others without regard to their personal worthiness or righteousness. Even Abraham understood that, and God agreed with him:

Genesis 18:

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Abraham has enough sense to know that it would make God unjust if He destroyed the righteous along with the wicked, without any regard to their righteousness; and God agrees. It is preposterous to suggest that God would arbitrarily save some and damn others without any regard to their personal virtue or righteousness. Abraham obviously had more common sense than Protestants do.

Continued … /

 

[zerinus]

/… Continued

Perhaps the greatest misconception among the religious world today is the idea that God is somehow obligated to make salvation available to every man. This is simply not true.
God is never depicted in Scripture as being under any such obligation to His creatures. The fact is, God has made it very plain in His word that salvation is a *divine privilege *– not a human right.

It is not a matter of being “obliged” to. It is a matter of His declaration that that is what He has done.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 states, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Far from depicting men as being innocent, the Bible describes humanity as “abominable and filthy,” and testifies that all men “drinketh iniquity like water” (Job 15:16)! The apostle Paul sums it up quite powerfully as he declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” (See Romans 3:10-17)!

In light of the fact that all men are guilty of sin, and worthy of condemnation, we are forced to admit that salvation itself must be an act of divine mercy – not human justice. In fact, what justice actually means is that all men get exactly what they deserve. Therefore, it would be the height of madness for an unjust sinner to charge God with an injustice for giving him what he deserves! In fact, God would have been perfectly just in passing by all men, choosing to save none, and leaving the entire race to perish for their sins. This is just the hard and humbling truth, no matter how you look at it. Ultimately, God is not obligated to save even a single sinner.

But election is an act of pure grace, whereby God, out of the good pleasure of His own will, chooses to bestow His sovereign mercy upon “a great multitude which no man can number” (Revelation 9:7-10). How then can men despise God for being merciful to millions, when the reality is, all men deserve His just and holy wrath on account of their own sins?

Imagine if someone owed you a thousand dollars, and then turned around and accused you of an injustice for not erasing the debt! Imagine how it would feel to learn that this person – though he is a debtor to you – actually views you as being a debtor to him? Truth be told, this is exactly how the opponents of sovereign election treat the very God of the Universe!

Those who oppose the doctrine of election are only demonstrating their personal enmity against God’s sovereignty and against His abundant goodness. Therefore, whether they realize it or not, those who oppose this doctrine are actually opposing the very God who sovereignly declares, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion” (Romans 9:16)!

You are mixing up an awful lot of scriptures which have no relevance to each other, and I am not going to spend the time that it takes to untangle this messy knot. I would just inform you that salvation comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ on condition of repentance and faith in Him. Repentance means being righteous. It means to stop doing with is wrong, and start doing what is right. Salvation is obtained subject to that condition. There is no free lunch. If you do not repent, faith alone will not save you. And as far as “election” is concerned, how do you explain this verse:

2 Peter 1:

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Please know, I am very happy for you. You love God and desire to follow Him. I do feel sad that you are missing the fullness of what God has for you. I was once their too so I know what I am talking about.

Izoid,

Since you were once Protestant, could you please share how long you have been Catholic? Many times we get overly excited when we make a move to something new which appears better than what we left. It’s the grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by zerinus
(MORMOMINISM) That is just plain false. The righteous are spared for their righteousness, not because of an arbitrary decision by God. Noah was spared because he was righteous, the scriptures already cited. The same was true of Lot. Both the Old Testament account and Peter in the New Testament confirm that they were spared because they were found righteous. In the Old Testament Abraham remonstrates with God to spare the entire city for the sake of just a few righteous that may be found in it, and God agrees:

Biblical Christianity
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they (Mormons) may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - Rom 10

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1:16-17

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ

Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. - Philippians 3

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. - Rom 4

Do Catholics believe like Mormons? It appears Izoid the LDS believer is saying that Old Testament saints were saved by God based on their own personal righteousness. When you look at the lives of the Hall of Fame Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11, you will find that if God judged them by their own personal righteousness, you will find them to be sinners deserving the eternal wrath of God for their sins.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Izoid,

Since you were once Protestant, could you please share how long you have been Catholic? Many times we get overly excited when we make a move to something new which appears better than what we left. It’s the grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

As I’ve said before, one’s Catholicity isn’t determined by duration and his/her’s faithfulness to The Church’s teachings. You always gripe that we are attempting to read your heart but here you presume to know the motives of another? C’mon…why not deal with the content of his post instead of making personal attacks?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Do Catholics believe like Mormons? It appears Izoid the LDS believer is saying that Old Testament saints were saved by God based on their own personal righteousness. When you look at the lives of the Hall of Fame Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11, you will find that if God judged them by their own personal righteousness, you will find them to be sinners deserving the eternal wrath of God for their sins.

As Guan has corrected to you before: The CC doesn’t believe anyone can be saved only to their merit. Grace is always unmerited. Salvation comes through cooperation with a soul and God.

Back to Adam and Eve…

You said that our humanity is made in fallen Adam’s image but as I’ve said before, God made us with free wills and intellects. Did man “unmake” what God has made by removing free will from his own nature?

Your thoughts…

 

[zerinus]

Biblical Christianity
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they (Mormons) may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - Rom 10

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Rom 1:16-17

Righteousness Through Faith in Christ

Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. - Philippians 3

Abraham Justified by Faith

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. - Rom 4

It is no good throwing a bunch of irrelevant scriptures at me if you are not prepared to explain how they back up your argument—or refute mine. You are sounding more and more like an artificial intelligence machine that can’t cope with the questions thrown at it. Have you heard of artificial intelligence? That is when they make a computer which is programed to behave or respond to a human as another human would. Sometimes they have competitions where they pit volunteer human testers against their machines to see if the tester can detect if he is interacting with a machine or a real human at the other end. The best designed machines are the ones that are hardest to detect. But if the tester is smart enough he will eventually be able to figure out how to ask the kinds of questions that will outwit the machine, and thus reveal that it is a machine and not a real human being. The machine eventually gets confused and does not know how to respond in the way that a normal human being would be expected to, therefore its cover is blown, and revealed to be a machine and not a real human being. You are sounding more and more like one of those artificial machines that has been busted. You have been programmed to respond in certain ways to certain questions, and that program is proving highly inadequate to handle the questions that are directed at it. And I might add, it is beginning to get very boring too. Maybe it is time I put you in the dog house, and find something more interesting to do. I am sure there are other posters on CAF who offer a more interesting challenge than this.

Here I have found you one that you would be proud of:

http://www.womansday.com/var/ezflow...e/569269-1-eng-US/Rachel-Hunters-Doghouse.jpg

Or if you don’t like that one you can always try this:

http://www.talkboutpets.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/dog-houses.jpg

Take your pick!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

It is no good throwing a bunch of irrelevant scriptures at me if you are not prepared to explain how they back up your argument—or refute mine. You are sounding more and more like an artificial intelligence machine that can’t cope with the questions thrown at it. Have you heard of artificial intelligence? That is when they make a computer which is programed to behave or respond to a human as another human would. Sometimes they have competitions where they pit volunteer human testers against their machines to see if the tester can detect if he is interacting with a machine or a real human at the other end. The best designed machines are the ones that are hardest to detect. But if the tester is smart enough he will eventually be able to figure out how to ask the kinds of questions that will outwit the machine, and thus reveal that it is a machine and not a real human being. The machine eventually gets confused and does not know how to respond in the way that a normal human being would be expected to, therefore its cover is blown, and revealed to be a machine and not a real human being. You are sounding more and more like one of those artificial machines that has been busted. You have been programmed to respond in certain ways to certain questions, and that program is proving highly inadequate to handle the questions that are directed at it. And I might add, it is beginning to get very boring too. Maybe it is time I put you in the dog house, and found something more interesting to do. I am sure there are other posters on CAF who offer a more interesting challenge than this.

No, this is better.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

It’s an unknown fact that these Stormtroopers are all Calvinists. The Ewoks and Chewbacca were defending the name of St. Francis (patron saint of animals) while Artoo and Threepio called the Pope.

 

[izoid]

Do Catholics believe like Mormons? It appears Izoid the LDS believer is saying that Old Testament saints were saved by God based on their own personal righteousness. When you look at the lives of the Hall of Fame Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11, you will find that if God judged them by their own personal righteousness, you will find them to be sinners deserving the eternal wrath of God for their sins.

Izoid the LDS believer? Where did that come from Adam? I think you better review my posts because if you feel the need to ascribe certain things to me they better be true. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that this is a simple typo, if so I expect that you will correct it immediately.

 

[izoid]

Izoid,

Since you were once Protestant, could you please share how long you have been Catholic? Many times we get overly excited when we make a move to something new which appears better than what we left. It’s the grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

I hope you are ready to eat some crow. I was confirmed in the Catholic Church on April 6, 1996 at OLPH n Scottsdale, AZ.

So much for your “theories”.

 

[zerinus]

No, this is better.

http://www.theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/pics/ewoks.jpg

It’s an unknown fact that these Stormtroopers are all Calvinists. The Ewoks and Chewbacca were defending the name of St. Francis (patron saint of animals) while Artoo and Threepio called the Pope.

I like that too!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Izoid,

Since you were once Protestant, could you please share how long you have been Catholic? Many times we get overly excited when we make a move to something new which appears better than what we left. It’s the grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

As I’ve said before, one’s Catholicity isn’t determined by duration and his/her’s faithfulness to The Church’s teachings. You always gripe that we are attempting to read your heart but here you presume to know the motives of another? C’mon…why not deal with the content of his post instead of making personal attacks?

I would have to strongly disagree. The Catholic Faith is quite complex, requiring years of study and meditation to discern actual true Catholic doctrine. Therefore, Forum sites like Catholic Answers are necessary to answer questions about the Catholic Faith for all Catholics. If Izoid just completed the RCIA classes and became Catholic, he is a new Catholic believer who really has very little credibility in my eyes to defend the Catholic Faith. It is no different than someone who became Reformed (Calvinist) in the last 12 months. He would not be qualified to represent and defend the Reformed Faith. It is the same as Izoid. Maybe Izoid is not an official Catholic member yet, who knows? Can someone represent the Catholic Faith and not be a member of the Catholic Church? If you reread my post, I am not making a personal attack, I am just trying to determine if Izoid’s posts to be the official Catholic position of many issues. Why does Catholic Answers have the “ask a Catholic apologist” section, if all Catholic credibility and knowledge are the same?

 

[Rocket_Man]

All I had was a KJB my Methodist grandmother gave me when I had first communion. I did not have any instruction in how to read it, so I started at Genesis,and quickly got bored!

I find your phrase “guickly got bored” quite puzzling when earlier it was stated you were “spiritually starving”. I recall when I began to read the Bible it consumed me night and day. I used to fall asleep at night with my arms wrapped around the book as if it were my mother.

In Psalms 119:97, David cries out “O how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day.” And In Psalms 1:2 we read, “But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.”

And then there is this old hymn wriiten by Isaac Watts in the 1700’s.

O how I love Thy holy law!
’Tis daily my delight;
And thence my meditations draw
Divine advice by night.

My waking eyes prevent the day
To meditate Thy Word;
My soul with longing melts away
To hear Thy Gospel, Lord.

How doth Thy Word my heart engage!
How well employ my tongue!
And in my tiresome pilgrimage,
Yields me a heav’nly song.

Am I a stranger or at home,
’Tis my perpetual feast;
Not honey dropping from the comb
So much allures the taste.

No treasures so enrich the mind;
Nor shall Thy Word be sold
For loads of silver well refined,
Nor heaps of choicest gold.

When nature sinks, and spirits droop,
Thy promises of grace
Are pillars to support my hope,
And there I write Thy praise.

In all your life experiences in different walks, did you ever come to a complete understanding of your depravity before Him and repent of your sins?

I am not sure what point you are trying to make, her, Rocket. Are you suggesting that, because many of us were poorly formed in the faith, that the Church is not founded by Christ, or that He failed in His promise to preserve her in all Truth?

I believe that a person who has recieved the Holy Spirit is, by the very nature of His person, actively engaged in the same ministries:

The Holy Spirit testifies of Christ
The Holy Spirit glorifies His Word

So, because I or my sister wasn’t even aware of any of these, I have a hard time believing that Spirit was living within us.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I would have to strongly disagree. The Catholic Faith is quite complex, requiring years of study and meditation to discern actual true Catholic doctrine. Therefore, Forum sites like Catholic Answers are necessary to answer questions about the Catholic Faith for all Catholics. If Izoid just completed the RCIA classes and became Catholic, he is a new Catholic believer who really has very little credibility in my eyes to defend the Catholic Faith. It is no different than someone who became Reformed (Calvinist) in the last 12 months. He would not be necessary qualified to represent and defend the Reformed Faith. It is the same as Izoid. Maybe Izoid is not an official Catholic member yet, who knows?

See 374. He has told you nothing but orthodox Catholic doctrine. You as a Calvinist really have no ground to question his faith or determine his Catholicity through this ad hominem; it really displays your ignorance of our faith.