"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[zerinus]

Let’s get back on track again. I stated that we were made in the image of the fallen Adam. You said that belief is a departure from Apostolic teaching. I gave you the following Scirpture:

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Do you want to admit that you were wrong, and move on?

What was he wrong about? How does that scripture prove that he was wrong?

 

[guanophore]

Thank you too for your most gracious post. One thing you do not know one thing about my morals. Glad that you can stand for something.

Only what you shared on the threads. Your support of birth control indicates that you do not believe that the fertilized egg is a person, or that it is ok with you to take a human life out of convenience. It also indicates that you don’t understand God’s purpose for marriage and family. I think these are moral issues.

Back to the thread topic, God’s grace is more than sufficient to deliver you from this contamination you have suffered from the culture of death in which we live.

Have you ever considered reading John Paul II’s Theology of the Body? God has poured out His more than sufficient grace through the Successor of Peter in this book that may be able to enlighten you why birth control is a sin.

 

[guanophore]

Let’s get back on track again. I stated that we were made in the image of the fallen Adam. You said that belief is a departure from Apostolic teaching. I gave you the following Scirpture:

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Do you want to admit that you were wrong, and move on?

What prevents me from moving on from here is the term “fallen likeness”. It think to you that means Totally Depraved, but that is not consistent with what teh Apostles taught. If by “fallen Adam’s image” you mean that the image of God in which Adam was created was “unmade”, then no, I am not wrong.

 

[2nd_Adam]

What prevents me from moving on from here is the term “fallen likeness”. It think to you that means Totally Depraved, but that is not consistent with what teh Apostles taught. If by “fallen Adam’s image” you mean that the image of God in which Adam was created was “unmade”, then no, I am not wrong.

This is our discussion below.

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
According to Scripture truth, Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which God declared to be good. After the fall, all mankind are created in the image of fallen Adam according to Scripture revelation.

Originally Posted by guanophore
Can you please show where you find this in scripture? This is a significant departure from the Apostolic teaching. I am still reeling in shock somewhat over this. I have never heard this before.

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

So, it appears you are wrong. If you can admit it, then we can move on.

 

[zerinus]

This is our discussion below.

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

So, it appears you are wrong. If you can admit it, then we can move on.

Okay, I think I finally understand what you are trying to get at. I think you are wrong. If Seth is made in the Image of Adam, and Adam is made in the image of God, that means that Seth is made in the image of God, no? If A is in the image of B, and B is in the image of C, that means that A is in the image of C. In mathematics, if A=B and B=C then A=C. The only time your argument becomes valid would be if Adam somewhere in the process lost the image of God and acquired some other image, which is not proven. For your argument to become valid you need to prove that somewhere along the line Adam lost the image of God in which he was created, and acquired some other image; and there is nothing in the scriptures to prove that he did. He was as much in the image of God after the Fall as before it. So your argument (as usual) falls flat on its face, like the proverbial pancake.

 

[guanophore]

This is our discussion below.

I understand what you are saying, 2nd, and I don’t have an arguement with what scripture records. My issue is how you interpret it. You are inserting the word “fallen” into the verse, and I think you are emphasizing that the nature of Adam has changed, so that when he makes offspring, they lack the God image that was created in Adam. Do I understand you correctly? This is really the crux of the problem with Total Depravity, and the reason why it was rejected as heresy by the Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I understand what you are saying, 2nd, and I don’t have an arguement with what scripture records. My issue is how you interpret it. You are inserting the word “fallen” into the verse, and I think you are emphasizing that the nature of Adam has changed, so that when he makes offspring, they lack the God image that was created in Adam. Do I understand you correctly? This is really the crux of the problem with Total Depravity, and the reason why it was rejected as heresy by the Church.

We didn’t even try to interpret that verse. I have idea how you are bringing up total depravity. I’m just saying we are made in the image of fallenAdam just like Seth. I believe you were not aware of that particular verse until now. I am saying that we were not created just like Adam before the fall. I believe Adam was not created to die. It is unnatural for mankind to die. But because of sin, we all die. Are you ready to continue?

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

This was our discussion below.

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
According to Scripture truth, Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which God declared to be good. After the fall, all mankind are created in the image of fallen Adam according to Scripture revelation.

Originally Posted by guanophore
Can you please show where you find this in scripture? This is a significant departure from the Apostolic teaching. I am still reeling in shock somewhat over this. I have never heard this before.

 

[zerinus]

We didn’t even try to interpret that verse. I have idea how you are bringing up total depravity. I’m just saying we are made in the image of fallenAdam just like Seth. I believe you were not aware of that particular verse until now. I am saying that we were not created just like Adam before the fall. I believe Adam was not created to die. It is unnatural for mankind to die. But because of sin, we all die. Are you ready to continue?

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

This was our discussion below.

You are just making yourself deaf, dumb, and blind. See my previous post. The validity of your argument hinges on the assumption that the image of Adam changed as a result of the Fall, so that he was no longer in the image of God. But there is no scripture to back that up. On the contrary, there is scripture that disproves it:

Genesis 9:

6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

God spoke these words after the Fall of Adam—in fact, long after the Fall of Adam, when Adam had already had many descendants. Heck, it is addressed to the descendants of Adam! They are the ones whom it says are created in the “image of God”—which is why it says one should not kill one’s brother. It is telling you that your brother (or neighbour, or friend, or enemy, or whatever) is made in the image of God, therefore you are forbidden to kill him. So my good friend Adam, you are still made in the image of God, and so is every other man, good or bad. So as you can see, your argument again falls flat on its face, just like a pancake does. Why don’t you just do the honest thing, and admit that Calvinism is wrong, and has led you astray? Surely truth is more important to you than Calvinism! Whom do you worship more, God or Calvin? Do you have a shrine at home to Calvin? Do you offer him daily sacrifices as well? That is idolatrous you know. God disapproves.

 

[zerinus]

You are just making yourself deaf, dumb, and blind. See my previous post. The validity of your argument hinges on the assumption that the image of Adam changed as a result of the Fall, so that he was no longer in the image of God. But there is no scripture to back that up. On the contrary, there is scripture that disproves it:

Genesis 9:

6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

God spoke these words after the Fall of Adam—in fact, long after the Fall of Adam, when Adam had already had many descendants. Heck, it is addressed to the descendants of Adam! They are the ones whom it says are created in the “image of God”—which is why it says one should not kill one’s brother. It is telling you that your brother (or neighbour, or friend, or enemy, or whatever) is made in the image of God, therefore you are forbidden to kill him. So my good friend Adam, you are still made in the image of God, and so is every other man, good or bad. So as you can see, your argument again falls flat on its face, just like a pancake does. Why don’t you just do the honest thing, and admit that Calvinism is wrong, and has led you astray? Surely truth is more important to you than Calvinism! Whom do you worship more, God or Calvin? Do you have a shrine at home to Calvin? Do you offer him daily sacrifices as well? That is idolatrous you know. God disapproves.

Hey Adam, do you know how a pancake falls flat on its face? Here are a couple of videos that shows you how:

youtube.com/watch?v=iZON421BfzM

youtube.com/watch?v=AnPJFAgrkI4

Your arguments kind of fall flat on their faces just like that!

 

[guanophore]

We didn’t even try to interpret that verse. I have idea how you are bringing up total depravity. I’m just saying we are made in the image of fallenAdam just like Seth.

You repeatedly stated that you wanted me to represent the Catholic view. I kept answering you tht it is predicated upon the nature and effects of the Fall. It is my understanting that my Reformed brethren have departed from the Apostolici Teaching in understanding this verse. They understand it to mean that the offspring of Adam are born into a state of total depravity.

I believe you were not aware of that particular verse until now.

Well, your assumption is incorrect. However to give credit where it is due, it was brought to my attention by my separated brethren. However, my bible does not have your word “fallen” inserted.

I am saying that we were not created just like Adam before the fall. I believe Adam was not created to die. It is unnatural for mankind to die. But because of sin, we all die. Are you ready to continue?

We are in agreement that we are not created like Adam before the Fall. Adam was created to have fellowship with God and to walk with Him in the garden. It is unnatural for man to be inclined away from God (to sin). No, I am not ready to continue. The remainder of the arguement predicates upon the notion of “fallen” Adam, whatever that means to you. Is the image of God “unmade” in him?

Also, you did not answer my other question that is germaine to this discussion. At what point was Cornelius “saved”?

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died.

What Catholics believe about salvation contains the whole revelation of God up to the time of theApostles. The Apostles believed that man was made in the image and likeness of God, and that this image remained, even after the Fall.

 

[guanophore]

Hey Adam, do you know how a pancake falls flat on its face?

Your arguments kind of fall flat on their faces just like that!

Let’s be fair, Zerinus, he said he has not even tried to interpret the verse yet, so let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Only what you shared on the threads. Your support of birth control indicates that you do not believe that the fertilized egg is a person, or that it is ok with you to take a human life out of convenience. It also indicates that you don’t understand God’s purpose for marriage and family. I think these are moral issues.

Wait a minute… are you saying Protestants are immoral because in our conscience before God… most Protestants use different forms of birth control that Catholics don’t?

 

[tweetymom]

Wait a minute… are you saying Protestants are immoral because in our conscience before God… most Protestants use different forms of birth control that Catholics don’t?

Yep Adam thats what he is saying. Good Morning to you and God Bless your day and your family.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You repeatedly stated that you wanted me to represent the Catholic view. I kept answering you tht it is predicated upon the nature and effects of the Fall. It is my understanting that my Reformed brethren have departed from the Apostolici Teaching in understanding this verse. They understand it to mean that the offspring of Adam are born into a state of total depravity.

Well, your assumption is incorrect. However to give credit where it is due, it was brought to my attention by my separated brethren. However, my bible does not have your word “fallen” inserted.

We are in agreement that we are not created like Adam before the Fall. Adam was created to have fellowship with God and to walk with Him in the garden. It is unnatural for man to be inclined away from God (to sin). No, I am not ready to continue. The remainder of the arguement predicates upon the notion of “fallen” Adam, whatever that means to you. Is the image of God “unmade” in him?

Also, you did not answer my other question that is germaine to this discussion. At what point was Cornelius “saved”?

What Catholics believe about salvation contains the whole revelation of God up to the time of theApostles. The Apostles believed that man was made in the image and likeness of God, and that this image remained, even after the Fall.

As I posted before, all mankind are still born in the image of God, but in a fallen and broken way. The evidence is in our deaths. Even Mary had to be rescued from original sin. I’m not sure what you want to discuss about Cornelius. Are you trying to say sinners are saved apart from faith in Christ, or by their own personal righteousness?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yep Adam thats what he is saying. Good Morning to you and God Bless your day and your family.

I love your new religious title, it is very biblical. I find that thereis a mix of Catholics… those who are biblical Catholics, and those who love tradition more than the Bible… (IMO).

 

[2nd_Adam]

The righteous are spared for their righteousness, not because of an arbitrary decision by God. Noah was spared because he was righteous, the scriptures already cited. The same was true of Lot. Both the Old Testament account and Peter in the New Testament confirm that they were spared because they were found righteous. In the Old Testament Abraham remonstrates with God to spare the entire city for the sake of just a few righteous that may be found in it, and God agrees:

Zerinius is paraphrasing the scriptures here, and doing so correctly, 2nd. God took the actions He did toward His chosen because they were righteous.

Help me out here… are you saying God chose certain Old Testament Saints based on their own personal righteousness?

 

[tweetymom]

I love your new religious title, it is very biblical. I find that thereis a mix of Catholics… those who are biblical Catholics, and those who love tradition more than the Bible… (IMO).

Thank you Adam. I really feel that I am a born again Christian, Catholic.And you know that I am a very Biblical Catholic, more than tradition.

 

[izoid]

Wait a minute… are you saying Protestants are immoral because in our conscience before God… most Protestants use different forms of birth control that Catholics don’t?

YOu can read the Catholic position here:

catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

 

[2nd_Adam]

YOu can read the Catholic position here:

catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

I’d rather hear your words on the issue.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thank you Adam. I really feel that I am a born again Christian, Catholic.And you know that I am a very Biblical Catholic, more than tradition.

The words of Jesus to you!

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. - Jesus