"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[benedictus2]

*The battle is about what is actual Sacred Tradition or human tradition. Just because you believe something is Sacred Tradition does not mean it is actually Sacred Tradition, rather it could be human tradition instead. *

Colossians 2:8
*See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. *

Amen

When the Bible was canonized, their yardstick as to what books are in or out is Sacred Tradtition. So if you accept the Bible then you accept Sacred Tradition because this preceeded the Bible.

And this is the reason why some protestants evade some books of the Bible. You can’t square your belief with the Bible (even just going by the Gospels themselves ) because you have nothing to go buy except that which we have already canonized.

And yes, the Catholic Church was the one who put Colossians in the Bible so she knows that which you speak of and that is why we know you are using this quote rather wrongly in this matter.

So Tweety, the Amen was misplaced.

 

[benedictus2]

Since we have reached the 1,000 post maximum on “The sufficiency of Christ” thread, we will continue on the parallel topic of “The sufficiency of Grace” as part two of our discussion with the intent for us to grow in our love for the Lord Jesus Christ as one big happy family.

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

As I have said before, James White lies with this statement because the question was never about sufficient of GRACE but sufficiency of FAITH, hence the slogan SOLA FIDE.

Is this a case of “we can’t get anywhere with Sola Fide so let’s change tactic even if it is not quite true?”

 

[benedictus2]

My experience was a result of the truth of Holy Scripture…

If your tradition seems to nullify this, I would be extremely cautious as what you submit to as authority.

Aahh, but you see, Sacred Tradition is the measure by which the canon was determined. That is why the very first mention of a canon was not the Canon of Scripture but the Canon of our Traditions.

So whether you like it or not, if you accept Holy Scripture you have to accept Sacred Tradtition because this is the basis as to which books are to be included or not.

And if you accept the Bible you have to accept the authority of the Catholic Church because she was the one who determined the canon.

 

[izoid]

First off, I said “**if **your tradition nullifies this”.

Second, I would like to ask a sincere question based on an observation from your question towards me.

It seems you’re backing up the truth of the Catholic Church (in this particular situation) [as opposed to sola scriptura] based on my [assumed] lacking evidence that my experience was a result of the Holy Scriptures, Holy Spirit and lets face it, God’s will for my life. If this is so, please just confirm to me that is in fact what you are doing…

Your assumptions are incorrect. I am asking you to prove your idea of sola scriptura. The Bible does not teach it, yet protestants demand that all we discuss is scripture in our doctrinal debates.

I am backing the Catholic Church as opposed to sola scriptura, just not on the basis that you claim.

 

[tweetymom]

It is responses like this, Tweety, to anti-catholic sentiments, that compromise your public reputation as a Catholic.

Thank you!

 

[tweetymom]

When the Bible was canonized, their yardstick as to what books are in or out is Sacred Tradtition. So if you accept the Bible then you accept Sacred Tradition because this preceeded the Bible.

And this is the reason why some protestants evade some books of the Bible. You can’t square your belief with the Bible (even just going by the Gospels themselves ) because you have nothing to go buy except that which we have already canonized.

And yes, the Catholic Church was the one who put Colossians in the Bible so she knows that which you speak of and that is why we know you are using this quote rather wrongly in this matter.

So Tweety, the Amen was misplaced.

Once again I say Amen.

 

[tweetymom]

I have not read your other posts but if you do not agree with all that is taught then how can you claim to be Catholic?

And those points that you do not agree with, have you actually studied them?

Yes indeed, I have.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes indeed, I have.

So which one do you not agree with and why?

 

[tweetymom]

So which one do you not agree with and why?

Birth Control, probably the biggest one.

 

[guanophore]

Yes indeed, I have.

This is great Tweety. Please share your experience and knowledge with us on this thread.

I am particularly interested in why your insights of Scripture differ from the Reformers.

 

[benedictus2]

Birth Control, probably the biggest one.

It seems Guano has already started a thread on this one (link was provided in post above this one).

I would be very interested why you think it is okay to contracept so would you care to post your objections on that thread.

 

[shawn38]

Repentence and Belief is sufficient enough

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[PRmerger]

Repentence and Belief is sufficient enough

We did you not include these verses?

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

 

[Cr8ton]

Your assumptions are incorrect. I am asking you to prove your idea of sola scriptura. The Bible does not teach it, yet protestants demand that all we discuss is scripture in our doctrinal debates.

I am backing the Catholic Church as opposed to sola scriptura, just not on the basis that you claim.

Then why were you asking who helped me interpret my experience (besides the Holy Spirit)?

 

[guanophore]

Then why were you asking who helped me interpret my experience (besides the Holy Spirit)?

It is the duty of the Church to shepherd the faithful by guiding them in the interpretation of their experiences by understanding them in the light of Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

[Cr8ton]

It is the duty of the Church to shepherd the faithful by guiding them in the interpretation of their experiences by understanding them in the light of Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

I follow the tradition of sola Scriptura and God is quite capable of giving me understanding into my personal experience with Him.

However I appreciate the kind gesture of the CC.

 

[guanophore]

I follow the tradition of sola Scriptura and God is quite capable of giving me understanding into my personal experience with Him.

However I appreciate the kind gesture of the CC.

I commend you for your fervent pursuit of God. I think the experience you shared on this thread has been undervalued by some, and this is saddening.

The “tradition” of SS is man made, as opposed to the Sacred Tradition, which comes from God. There is nothing inherintly wrong with human traditions either, unless they God against God’s instruction,like SS does.

I agree, God is quite capable of giving you understanding into your personal experiences iwth Him, and it is clear from your posts that He has done so.

However, God does not reveal things to to individuals that contradict what He has already revealed to the Church.

The duty of the Church to shepherd and guide the faithful is not a “kind gesture”, but a Divinely instituted mission. You are free to refuse the gift of God through the Church.

I notice that the “jesus and me, nobody else” mentality is quite popular in America today. This sentiment was foreign to the Apostles.

 

[Cr8ton]

However, God does not reveal things to to individuals that contradict what He has already revealed to the Church.

God does not reveal things to to individuals that contradict what He has already in the Scriptures either. It seems the biblical evidence to support apostolic succession is lacking. At the end of revelations God specifically says not to add or remove any words from the Holy Bible. If He was going to continue to put new meanings in Scripture He would’ve done so Himself. I find it very hard for someone who finds the Bible to come up with all of the interpretations given by the magistrate on their own… which to me says these are man-made interpretations just like all of the protestant church’s.

It comes down to a person being open to the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, and being honest with themselves. Also a willingness to wrestle with the Scriptures so that you may understand the interpretation that God intended. No one will know everything perfectly on this side of eternity.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

 

[shawn38]

We did you not include these verses?

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

These were included and some others.

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

I did not include others that did not specifically mention salvation. We are called to repentence (I mentioned that) and be baptized. However without faith and belief in Christ, those things would not happen.

 

[guanophore]

God does not reveal things to to individuals that contradict what He has already in the Scriptures either.

Of course. This is contained in what I said. the entire NT is part of God’s revelation to the Church. It was written, preserved, promulgated, and canonized by that Aposotlic Succession appointed by Christ.

It seems the biblical evidence to support apostolic succession is lacking.

I am sure it “seems” this way to you. It often does to anyone who reads it with anti-Catholic lenses., That, however, is grist for another thread.

  At the end of revelations God specifically says not to add or remove any words from the Holy Bible.

No, Cr8ton, it does not. You seem to be lacking some basic information on the history of the NT. When you study this, you will find that the book of Revelation went through quite a battle before it was accepted as part of the canon. Furthermore, Catholics arranged the order of the books contained in the NT. The words in Rev. apply to the book of Rev.

On the contrary, the Catholic Church ADDED EVERY WORD of the NT to the Bible. If they don’t have authority to do this, then you have no authority for that book you have come to love so much!

If He was going to continue to put new meanings in Scripture He would’ve done so Himself. I find it very hard for someone who finds the Bible to come up with all of the interpretations given by the magistrate on their own…

Yes, I would say it is next to impossible for someone to figure out 2000 years of history on their own.

which to me says these are man-made interpretations just like all of the protestant church's.

Yes, of course it seems that way to you! How else can it seem? You are so far separated from the Apostolic Succession, you think it does not exist!

It comes down to a person being open to the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, and being honest with themselves.

I agree. I recommend you extend that honesty into some history, and learn how the Biblel came to be.

Also a willingness to wrestle with the Scriptures so that you may understand the interpretation that God intended. No one will know everything perfectly on this side of eternity.

We will not know everything perfectly on the other side, either. However, we can know what God has already revealed to the Church, if we are willing to accept Him.

Rom 14:13  Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Telling you the truth that God has revealed to the Church is not an attempt to judge you, Cr8ton.