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elvisman
Guest
And Jesus himself refutes this notion that ALL those who call upon his name are saved:
Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
Context, my friend . . . CONTEXT.
"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.
- Status
Matt. 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
Context, my friend . . . CONTEXT.
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izoid
Guest
I am asking where you got the interpretation of the verse from.
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Cr8ton
Guest
italics mine
I noticed you wrote all these in the past tense, which seems to be correct to me. However if you believe that appointed apostolic succession was to continue on after the Holy Bible was already complete, I’d ask on what scriptures do you draw this conclusion. (which I’m sure you have many, which is also through the pro-Catholic lens)
the catholic church did have the authority to do this. After the Bible was completed and written, would you say the Catholic Church still has the authority to change what the Scriptures say? (including the prophecy in revelations?)
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So from this conclusion, would you say it is impossible for one who didn’t have access to the Catholic Church and had the Holy Bible to fully receive what Christ has for them spiritually?
In some contexts I can accept the existence of it, the word succession is what throws me off. I believe it didn’t continue in the same way of authority as it was when the Apostles were inspired of the Holy Spirit to write the Holy Scriptures.Yes, of course it seems that way to you! How else can it seem? You are so far separated from the Apostolic Succession, you think it does not exist!
I’m definitely open to that.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing here
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I guess that depends how you define “like” in this scripture. just some spiritual food for thought.
back to my question before…
Is it true to say that based on your judgment (in authority of the CC) the Catholic Church is the only way for one to fully receive what God has for them in life?
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izoid
Guest
I think it important to point out and to ponder that we could get 5 different protestant pastors, from varying denominations, together and get 5 different interpretations of a given verse. Not only is this possible, it is probable for many verses. All of these men, or women, would all claim sola scriptura, all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, yet all have different interpretations.I follow the tradition of sola Scriptura and God is quite capable of giving me understanding into my personal experience with Him.
However I appreciate the kind gesture of the CC.
You see, I am filled with the Holy Spirit and I reject your belief in sola scriptura. You are filled with the Holy Spirit and reject the Catholic Churches authority over the believer, something I embrace. How can all of this be of the Spirit? Can it be? Remember, it is not only a Catholic - protestant issue, it is a protestant - protestant issue also.
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izoid
Guest
Originally Posted by guanophore
I do to, having spent years dispensing it in a medical clinic, and facilitating abortions, it would be impossible for me to admit that it does not exist. Please bring your “beliefs, period” to the other thread, so that we can avoid derailing this one.
2nd Adam, you did not answer my question. When was Cornelius saved?
Does God grand sufficient grace for all to come to repentance, and if not, why does He command them to do something He does not intend for them to do?
Thanks, in advance these areas have always been a mystery to me.
I do to, having spent years dispensing it in a medical clinic, and facilitating abortions, it would be impossible for me to admit that it does not exist. Please bring your “beliefs, period” to the other thread, so that we can avoid derailing this one.
2nd Adam, you did not answer my question. When was Cornelius saved?
Does God grand sufficient grace for all to come to repentance, and if not, why does He command them to do something He does not intend for them to do?
Thanks, in advance these areas have always been a mystery to me.
I think it would be great if we could get an answer to these questions that Guan asked, he has been very patient.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Efficacious grace is part of the basic truth. Sufficient grace is given to all. Some reject it and never come to Christ. Some co-operate with it and they come to Christ. Some of those who come reject it later and they are cut of from Christ. Those who do not reject it remain in Christ because they are given efficacious grace, which they freely co-operate with.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Please explain your understanding of God’s sovereign will.
Was it God’s sovereign will that Adam and Eve not eat from the tree?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Well, God has the right to command all mankind to conform to His moral perfection because He is the Creator and we are the creatures. All sin is falling short of what God commands for all us. The first four commandments in the 10 commandments is our duty to God. The next six commandments is our duty to our fellowman. We can summarize the 10 commandments by lovining God with all of our hearts, soul, strength, and mind, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Nobody is able to keep the 10 commandments in the manner required by God, yet God still commands this from us. The good news is that God did not gives us the 10 commandments as a method of salvation, since He knew beforehand that nobody would be able to keep them perfectly due to our fallen nature. The 10 commandments reveals our sinfulness; therefore, driving us to Christ as our Savior and Lord.
**The Law and the Promise **
Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. - Gal 3
**But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? **
…and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; - Rom 9
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
I agree! I’d also like a reply to my awesome sauce of a post 592
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think your post is completely solid and biblical, which glorifies God. I’ve met other grounded Catholics who think just like you. If you carry your belief to the final conclusion, I think we can both agree that our views can give God all the glory in what He has done for us in Christ Jesus. It’s all of grace brother to the praise of His glorious grace!
Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)
:knight1::hug1::harp:
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I know of many Catholics who proclaim Jesus Christ over and above the Catholic Church. IMO… you appear to have greater affection for the Catholic Church than Jesus Christ Himself. I believe Peter Kreeft’s paper on justification by faith is extremely insightful. Jesus Christ is for Christian living too! The Apostles had greater affection for Jesus Christ than the visible church.No. Do I appear silly?
You hit it right on the head, except for the last one. In fact, the reason all the first six are true is ALL JESUS! He is the Head, and the Church is His Body!
This may seem silly to Protestants because many of them seem to have been duped by this modern day innovation of “Jesus’ n Me”, nobody else.
However, Jesus is not “alone”. He chose to build a Church, and He chose to make all those who come to Him as Head members of one another. That means, when we are saved, we become members of His One Body, the Church.
2nd, We don’t separate Jesus from His Body, so to us, it is the same. However, I am not here to “point” people. I am here to defend the Teachings of the Apostles that were committed to the Church. My mission is not primarily evangelistic. For that, I spend about 10 hours a day face to face with people who are suffering.
CAF is here to provide Catholic Answers. What did you expect? Did you expect me to claim to be Catholic, and give non-Catholic answers?
"But many Catholics to this day have not learned the Catholic and biblical doctrine. They think we are saved by good intentions or being nice or sincere or trying a little harder or doing a sufficient number of good deeds. Over the past twenty-five years I have asked hundreds of Catholic college students the question: If you should die tonight and God asks you why he should let you into heaven, what would you answer? The vast majority of them simply do not know the right answer to this, the most important of all questions, the very essence of Christianity. They usually do not even mention Jesus! "
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html
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tweetymom
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Thank you for the link, Very interesting article. God Bless you.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
IMO… evidence of truly being united to Christ is found in our personal affection and love for the person of Jesus Christ. Because someone has love for the Catholic Church is not really a great sign of being united to Christ. You can also see this in Protestant churches too, where members love their particular church more than God Himself. Our assurance of being in the Faith is found in our love and affection for our Triune God, first and forremost. Do you believe the gospel of God is glorious? Do you love God in what He has done for you as revealed in the face of Jesus Christ?Your problem, my stubborn friend is that you refuse to acknowledge what Jesus himself acknowledged:
That He and His Church are inseperable. The Church is the body of which Christ is the head. Jesus equates Himself with the Church (Acts 9:4-5).
YOU, in your spritually prideful rebelliousness try to dissect the Church from Jesus. It CAN’T be done.
**THAT’S **why the very God-breathed Scripture that YOU claim to be the “Final Authority” says that the CHURCH is the the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and NOT the Scriptures themselves…
"Catholic this and Catholic that", indeed . . .
The Light of the Gospel
Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4
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tweetymom
Guest
Right on target Adam. Some people are more involved with law this and law that , that I wonder if they have time for Jesus?
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Straw man: Some isn’t all. Just because some Catholic haven’t learned the faith, it doesn’t mean all do. It’s spurious to project those that don’t know the faith upon those that do: you can really judge Catholicity based upon those that don’t practice it but those that do. Furthermore, there’s no false dichotomy between the Church and Jesus; the CC doesn’t impose any means between us and God himself. Again, these claims are based upon your perceptions not actual fact.
By using this as your exhibit A, do you agree that the Bible is a Catholic book?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Thank you for your great love for Jesus Christ dear sister! Always remember Romans 8:28. Another good one is Romans 8:28 through 8:35 too. These verses will grow your already deep love for God even more and more!
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I don’t believe it is a Catholic issue because it is found in Protestant churches too. I believe all Christians can have a tendecy to lose sight of Jesus Christ in the Christian journey. Here is a key verse addressed to all Christians who love the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 12
Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
LOL… are you on the Pelagius end of Catholic Theology? What is a faithful Muslim man? And how can he call on the name of the Lord without hearing of Christ?This is a very good point, and reinforces the Catholic Teaching that people can be saved who are not part of the visible Catholic Church. For example, a faithful Muslim might not know Christ, but purely and faithfully call upon the name of the Lord. Such a person, when confronted personally by the risen Christ, may well fall upon his knees, and call Him Lord.
The Message of Salvation to All
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” Rom 10
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elvisman
Guest
Unfortunately, you begin many of your statements with IMO (In MY opinion) – instead of “God has this to say . . .”
This is the basis of your spiritual pride – it’s Adam’s way – NOT God’s way.
Regardless of what lukewarm, would-be Catholics like Tweetymom have to say – true Catholics don’t place the Church ABOVE Jesus – he IS the Church – along with us, his Body. He made this perfectly clear in Acts 9:4-5, as I’ve already shown you.
Your disdain for His Church speaks volumes about your ignorance of the Scriptures. You quote a lot of passages, yet have a complete lack of knowledge of what you’re pasting into your replies.
As I’ve stated before, Paul spoke well of people like you and Tweetymom:
“In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures" (2 Pet. 3:16).
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I’ve been on Catholic Answers since August. It seems that most of the postings by Catholics are not about the person of Jesus Christ. Rather, the postings are about the Catholic Church.
We are to proclaim Him, the head of the church. It seems many Catholics rather proclaim the body instead of the head.- Status