"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Cr8ton]

I have something to add that is an obvious attribute of the ones who are predestined to glory (meaning salvation) and not predestined to grace (meaning falling away).** That is LOVE**, as you can see that** in everything God works for good who those who LOVE Him!** If you know in your heart you truly love the Lord then you can lean on this promise from God in the scripture.

If a person received Christ even though he never looked upon Jesus as a treasure in His heart and felt a strong love for His creator. He could have even done good works to support his faith but for some reason decides to willfully turn away. Therefore, when falling away from Christ and falling in to apostasy for whatever reason (be it Persecution, false teachers, temptation, worldliness, neglect and hardened unbelief, failure to release old religion) You may say they had eternal life and lost it…whereas I may say they never truly were an elect (predestined to glory). Either way we both would know that if they remained in their apostasy then they were not a part of the predestined to glory, did not love God nor was he called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:28-30, “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” What is evident from this passage is that those who are effectually called into the hope of salvation will indeed persevere to the end and be glorified.

---

[following this is quoted from John Piper]"God works to cause his elect to persevere.

We are not left to ourselves and our assurance is very largely rooted in the sovereign love of God to perform that which he has called us to do. l Peter 1:5, “By God’s power we are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” Jude 24,25, “Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

l Thessalonians 5:23-24, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.”

Philippians 1:6, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

l Corinthians 1:8-9, “Jesus Christ will sustain you to the end; guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Therefore we should be zealous to make our calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1:10, “Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.” "
end quote-John Piper​

The purpose for all of this to show that if you are a devout believer in Jesus Christ and truly love Him, you should have no worry of your salvation! Scripture says: "Jesus Christ will sustain you to the end; guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
God wants us to rest assured in these precious promises He has told us.

We are not to constantly evaluate our salvation but to do His work out of LOVE! If we are constantly worried about doing enough good to preserve our own souls we largely miss out on what God has planned for our lives. I would even say we aren’t trusting in what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross which is what this thread represents.​

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

After all that,But if you deny Him, what? He’ll deny you. To deny Him is apostasy. To slip in trust is carnality. For the apostate, Christ denies him. For the believer whose faith runs low, God is what? Faithful. You may be faithless at some point in your life. He is faithful.

All right, if a person, then, persists in deliberate and willful sin of denial and rejection, is he a Christian? Of course not. He’s an apostate. Because the truly saved will continue. And this is so clear.

I John 3:9, “Whosoever is born of God does not continue to be committing sin, for His seed remains in him, and he cannot continue to be committing sin, because He’s born of God.” You see? If you’re born of God, you cannot continue to be committing sin. But if you’re an apostate, you continue to be committing sin.

Continuation, for one who continues in unbelief, he never was a believer. Because if a man is born of God, he cannot continue to commit sin. He must stop at some point and fall at the feet of his Savior in penitence. The truly saved continue. The truly apostate also continue in their unbelief. Continuance is the issue.

-JM

 

[guanophore]

I’m surprised 2ndAdam hasn’t commented on his own thread for awhile. Anyone know where he is?

He is over there trying to derail a thread on birth control.

 

[guanophore]

interesting, so would you say that it is impossible for us to know as Christians whether or not we are predestined unto glory? Therefore making all of God’s promises to us regarding eternal life and salvation always unsure and shaky ground?

'The first fact does not create the second. Scripture is clear about assurances that we can have. The Christian should never find oneself on “unsure and shaky ground”. Our salvation is based upon Christ, and there is no more sure Rock.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure we left off. I will take time for me to catch up on this thread. All I know is that Cornelius was part of the remnant chosen by grace before the foundation of the world.

You will not need to catch up on the thread to answer the questions. They are hanging just where you left them.

No progress was made on this during your very useful absence there.

You posted the scripture from Acts 10, so I hope you also reviewed it.

Reading all the posts will not help you to answer, 2nd. However, if you are holding out hoping the thread will close, you may be saved by the post count.

 

[guanophore]

You say the elect had salvation and lost it, we say the one who lost it was never truly an elect, but that doesn’t mean its impossible for one to be predestined to grace as opposed to predestined to glory…( although I’m not convinced this means he was born of God) but in the end turns out to be an apostate.

I don’t see the relation… please help me understand what you are implying by this?

Catholics say they are irresistibly drawn to Mary?

The experience you described is the experience of Mary, the mother of Christ.

But yes, some Catholics do seem to be irresistably drawn to Mary.

You say the elect had salvation and lost it, we say the one who lost it was never truly an elect, …

No, actually, the Apostles taught that salvation is not completed in this life. It would not be appropriate to say one can “lose” that which they haven not yet attained!

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

 

[ryanoneil]

interesting, so would you say that it is impossible for us to know as Christians whether or not we are predestined unto glory? Therefore making all of God’s promises to us regarding eternal life and salvation always unsure and shaky ground?

Only God has forknowledge. That is what predestination is. What we do is “hope” for salvation. These are “hope” verses. Not certainty verses.

Rom. 5:2
Rom. 5:5
Rom. 8:24
Rom. 10:1
Rom. 12:12
2 Cor. 3:12
Gal. 5:5
Eph. 1:18
Phil. 1:20
Col. 1:5
Col. 1:23
Col. 1:27
1 Thess. 1:3
1 Thess. 2:19
1 Thess. 5:8
2 Thess. 2:16
1 Tim. 1:1
1 Tim. 4:10
1 Tim. 5:5
Titus 1:2
Titus 2:13
Titus 3:7
Heb. 3:6
Heb. 6:11
Heb. 6:18
Heb. 6:19
Heb. 7:19
Heb. 10:23
Heb. 11:1
1 Peter 1:3
1 Peter 1:13
1 Peter 1:21
1 Peter 3:15
1 John 3:3

God’s promises about eternal life are not on shaky ground. We have been given assurance that we are in fact currently saved (as true Christians), and that, if we perseveres to the end, we will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not).

 

[ryanoneil]

You say the elect had salvation and lost it, we say the one who lost it was never truly an elect, but that doesn’t mean its impossible for one to be predestined to grace as opposed to predestined to glory…( although I’m not convinced this means he was born of God) but in the end turns out to be an apostate.

you quoted above saying these verses I posted below in Romans are for believers who are predestined to glory.

Those elected to only to grace ultimately lose their justification and salvation and they end up being apostates. Those elected to grace and glory do not.

 

[benedictus2]

For 2ndAdam and any Calvinist who insist on their own interpretation or for anyone who believes that the Bible explains itself.

In 1534, a radical apocalytic group in Munster set up an indepedent theocratic state based on a literal reading of scripture which licensed polygamy, condemned all violence and outlawed private ownership. This short lived experiment lasted only a year but it alarmed the reformers.

"If there was no authoritative body to control biblical reading, how could anybody know who was right? Who will give our conscience sure information about which party is teaching us the pure Word of God, we or our opponents Is every fanatic to have the right to teach whatever he please? "-- Martin Luther

Calvin agrees.

"If everyone has a right to be judge and arbiter on this matter, nothing can be set down as certain and our whole religion will be full of uncertainty. — John Calvin.

---

(reference: :On the Bible" by Karen Armstrong)

 

[benedictus2]

interesting, so would you say that it is impossible for us to know as Christians whether or not we are predestined unto glory? Therefore making all of God’s promises to us regarding eternal life and salvation always unsure and shaky ground?

Only God has forknowledge. That is what predestination is. What we do is “hope” for salvation. These are “hope” verses. Not certainty verses.

Rom. 5:2
V
V
God’s promises about eternal life are not on shaky ground. We have been given assurance that we are in fact currently saved (as true Christians), and that, if we perseveres to the end, we will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not).

That is whyI think the better phrase is “being saved”. Christ has begun the work of salvtion in us and it is a process. When we “get” to heaven, then we are saved. Until then, we are being saved.

Christ has laid out this road to Home and the way is narrow and thorny. When get Home we are saved, in the meantime Christ walks with us to safety.

Acts 2:47 And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

 

[zerinus]

Ok - slow down there buddy. Let’s take this thing slowly. One passage at a time.

You are trying to prove that the Protestant doctrine of Unconditional Election is false.

So ok, give me your first passage. And do not just quote it, but properly interpret it for me.

Then we can have a reasonable dialogue.

In my article, I surrounded my Scripture quotations with heavy commentary. To simply copy-paste a bunch of Bible text accomplishes absolutely nothing, because as you know, we each see the meaning of those Scriptures in a different way.

The real progress will be made only by conversing about why we understand each passage the way we do. This is called dialogue. It works a lot better than parroting Bible verses at eachother.

Okay, first give me an accurate definition of the “Protestant doctrine of Unconditional Election”.

 

[ncgolf]

If a person received Christ even though he never looked upon Jesus as a treasure in His heart and felt a strong love for His creator. He could have even done good works to support his faith but for some reason decides to willfully turn away.

No … faith or love is not primarily a feeling. Strong feelings can accompany love or faith but they are not the same.

Young people often fall into this trap of “feeling” love but it is not truly love. No one doubts those strong feelings and they can indicate the growing of love but it is not love.

Love is the wanting of the good of the other without regard to one’s self. That is the losing of self … it is self-giving love … a sacrificial love, this is what the love that God is … is an act of the will. This is why faith is never alone … no gift of God is ever alone.

What you describe in your sentence is a budding faith … and in that bud like young love it can falter.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The experience you described is the experience of Mary, the mother of Christ.

But yes, some Catholics do seem to be irresistably drawn to Mary.

No, actually, the Apostles taught that salvation is not completed in this life. It would not be appropriate to say one can “lose” that which they haven not yet attained!

Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

You just put yourself in a dilemma, which is a works based salvation, thus nullifying grace. Congrats!

By saying the apostles taught that salvation s not complete in this life, then saying you cannot lose what you did not attain, then how is one saved from the beginning to the end. For if God is the one that provides salvation, then the moment you are justified you are saved positionally with God. But according to the gospel of Guanaphore, this has not been obtained; so explain your gospel please.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if R474 you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

{For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. - It is as good as is done, being done and will be completely done; if you have one you have all and not of works.

Please explain your gospel.

 

[Cr8ton]

No … faith or love is not primarily a feeling. Strong feelings can accompany love or faith but they are not the same.

Young people often fall into this trap of “feeling” love but it is not truly love. No one doubts those strong feelings and they can indicate the growing of love but it is not love.

Love is the wanting of the good of the other without regard to one’s self. That is the losing of self … it is self-giving love … a sacrificial love, this is what the love that God is … is an act of the will. This is why faith is never alone … no gift of God is ever alone.

What you describe in your sentence is a budding faith … and in that bud like young love it can falter.

I believe the definition of love you gave is in fact one that would accompany this heart felt love I spoke of. So we are in agreement that both of these “types” if you will, of love are involved when saving faith is granted. perhaps you will say the second isnt necessary but I believe anyone who has the kind of love you spoke of will also have strong feelings for whom it is they love.

 

[Cr8ton]

Those elected to only to grace ultimately lose their justification and salvation and they end up being apostates. Those elected to grace and glory do not.

It seems to me you believe predestination is all based on what God already knew would or would not happen… therefore its us humans that cause who God predestined to salvation instead of what the scripture says.

Please confirm this if this is the case and I will show why I disagree.

 

[tweetymom]

I believe the definition of love you gave is in fact one that would accompany this heart felt love I spoke of. So we are in agreement that both of these “types” if you will, of love are involved when saving faith is granted. perhaps you will say the second isnt necessary but I believe anyone who has the kind of love you spoke of will also have strong feelings for whom it is they love.

I fell in love with Jesus when He saved me from the life I was leading ahd it has been 36 years and that love has grown and grown for what He has done for me. Dieing on the Cross a prime example.

 

[Cr8ton]

I fell in love with Jesus when He saved me from the life I was leading ahd it has been 36 years and that love has grown and grown for what He has done for me. Dieing on the Cross a prime example.

Amen! wonderful to hear that!

It’s refreshing to see Catholic clay that doesn’t talk back to the potter as 2nd pointed our earlier.

 

[guanophore]

You just put yourself in a dilemma, which is a works based salvation, thus nullifying grace. Congrats!

I am sorry, I do not see anything in this passage from Paul that indicates any “works based salvation”. I think that Paul is consistently clear that all of our “effort” must emanate from His grace, or it has no eternal value.

Paul’s observation that we don’t attain salvation in this life is not “works based” either. Are you sure you did not respond to the wrong post?

By saying the apostles taught that salvation s not complete in this life, then saying you cannot lose what you did not attain, then how is one saved from the beginning to the end.

By grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

What do you think the apostle was saying in that passage? How do you read it? What is the “mature” attitude he was proposing for all of us?

For if God is the one that provides salvation, then the moment you are justified you are saved positionally with God. But according to the gospel of Guanaphore, this has not been obtained; so explain your gospel please.

No, you misunderstood me. The Apostles taught that we are justified before God the moment we are born again.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Amen! A Catholic verse, written by a Catholic, to Catholics!

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

This is part of the Apostolic Teaching that illustrates salvation includes justification, sanctification, and glorification.

the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if R474 you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

{For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. - It is as good as is done, being done and will be completely done; if you have one you have all and not of works.

Please explain your gospel.

You just did such a fine job here, I can’t think of anything to add. The Gospel, as recorded in the NT is Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

I fell in love with Jesus when He saved me from the life I was leading ahd it has been 36 years and that love has grown and grown for what He has done for me. Dieing on the Cross a prime example.

We thank God for rescuing you, Tweety, and bringing you into the light of His life. :extrahappy:

 

[guanophore]

Amen! wonderful to hear that!

It’s refreshing to see Catholic clay that doesn’t talk back to the potter as 2nd pointed our earlier.

Wonderful to see that Jesus has rescued Tweety, yes, but you have been misled that she is “catholic clay”. You have fallen over the same stumblingn block that 2nd has. You have been duped into thinking that it is proper for a person to call themselves Catholic when they reject the Teachings of the Church. It sounds, from Tweety’s testimony, that she has been a very faithful Protestant during all these years, growing in grace. For some reason, at this time in her walk with God, she has found it expedient to represent herself as someone she is not. It is causing a painful scandal here on CAF. Moldable clay, bravo. Misrepresenting the truth, not so much.

 

[Cr8ton]

Wonderful to see that Jesus has rescued Tweety, yes, but you have been misled that she is “catholic clay”. You have fallen over the same stumblingn block that 2nd has. You have been duped into thinking that it is proper for a person to call themselves Catholic when they reject the Teachings of the Church. It sounds, from Tweety’s testimony, that she has been a very faithful Protestant during all these years, growing in grace. For some reason, at this time in her walk with God, she has found it expedient to represent herself as someone she is not. It is causing a painful scandal here on CAF. Moldable clay, bravo. Misrepresenting the truth, not so much.

so anyone who disagrees with any part of the CC cannot be considered Catholic?