"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[zerinus]

I’m still here, but I don’t have the time to catch up right now. Thanks for your continual participation on this thread.

I am still here too. Isn’t that terrible!

I don’t believe it’s biblical to say that you have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. That’s a modern day invention which started with Charles Finney in the 2nd Great Awakening in America. Your point 2 is interesting. All Christians strive to live a life worthy of our call, yet we all struggle with sin daily in this body and current world system, and our enemy the devil is real. So, what happens when you fall short of the worthy goal of living a Christ-like life daily? What do you do?

To live a life worthy of our calling can be summarized as this:

1. Love the Lord your God with ALL or your heart, soul, strenght, and mind
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

True; but how do you show your love for the Lord (and your neighbor)? According to the scriptures, this is how:

John 14:

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

That is true repentance!

We do the same thing, we confess our sins and repent. However, we go directly to God in our confession, since all sin is againts God.

Wrong! Sin is against man as well as God, and we must confess to both:

Matthew 3:

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judæa, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him {John} in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 18:

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass {i.e. sin} against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee {i.e. repent and confess}, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Mark 1:

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke 17:

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass {i.e. sin} against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent {i.e. confess}; thou shalt forgive him.

Then we return in faith in the truth of the gospel.

What happens if you don’t?

Since most Protestant Churches do not have the sacrament of reconcillation, are you saying that God does not hear our confession of our sins; therefore, He does not forgive us?

Confession is the mark of true repentance. Without confession there is no genuine repentance.

Viva Sola Scriptura! :extrahappy:

 

[izoid]

We do the same thing, we confess our sins and repent. However, we go directly to God in our confession, since all sin is againts God. Then we return in faith in the truth of the gospel. Since most Protestant Churches do not have the sacrament of reconcillation, are you saying that God does not hear our confession of our sins; therefore, He does not forgive us?

No, I am not saying that you are not forgiven.

There is great power in the sacrament of reconciliation and you are missing out on that. Since God gave the apostles, as leaders of His Church, the authority to forgive sins it goes without saying that this is a worthwhile and beneficial practice that protestants are missing out on.

 

[ryanoneil]

It seems to me you believe predestination is all based on what God already knew would or would not happen… therefore its us humans that cause who God predestined to salvation instead of what the scripture says.

Please confirm this if this is the case and I will show why I disagree.

Predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge! God is the cause of salvation. He is the Prime Mover and the Grace Giver. We are not the cause. We are the cooperators or resisters.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge! God is the cause of salvation. He is the Prime Mover and the Grace Giver. We are not the cause. We are the cooperators or resisters.

If you look at Scripture, it’s more than God’s foreknowledge that determines the elect. We know that God knows beforehand who would come to Christ in an effectual way. However, those who come to Christ in an effectual way were foreknown by God. The word foreknew is much more than God’s foreknowledge.

 

[ryanoneil]

If you look at Scripture, it’s more than God’s foreknowledge that determines the elect. We know that God knows beforehand who would come to Christ in an effectual way. However, those who come to Christ in an effectual way were foreknown by God. The word foreknew is much more than God’s foreknowledge.

I agree. God declared it in advance, but it does not mean that God determines what we do. God’s sovereignty includes our free will.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree. God declared it in advance, but it does not mean that God determines what we do. God’s sovereignty includes our free will.

Please study out the verses with foreknew. God didn’t base His election on something that he foreseen in us. If He did, then grace would no longer by grace. There is nothing in the fallen creatures which compelled Him to save us over those whom He passed over. If God was limited to save certain creatured based on what was in the creature, than man is limiting the sovereign work of God in redemption.

 

[zerinus]

Please study out the verses with foreknew.

Which verses? Why don’t you tell people what verses you want them to study, instead of sending them up the garden path or a wild goose chase?

God didn’t base His election on something that he foreseen in us. If He did, then grace would no longer by grace.

Why? Who says? What is the logic behind that?

There is nothing in the fallen creatures which compelled Him to save us over those whom He passed over.

Of course there is! Salvation is conditional on repentance and faith on Jesus Christ. That is written all over the Bible. The “elect” are those who humble themselves before God, repent, and believe. There is no “election” on any other basis than that.

If God was limited to save certain creatured based on what was in the creature, than man is limiting the sovereign work of God in redemption.

That is the biggest load of rubbish I ever heard!

 

[tweetymom]

Which verses? Why don’t you tell people what verses you want them to study, instead of sending them up the garden path or a wild goose chase?

Why? Who says? What is the logic behind that?

Of course there is! Salvation is conditional on repentance and faith on Jesus Christ. That is written all over the Bible. The “elect” are those who humble themselves before God, repent, and believe. There is no “election” on any other basis than that.

That is the biggest load of rubbish I ever heard!

Youir answers semm a bit angry

 

[zerinus]

Youir answers semm a bit angry

He turns a blind eye to what people say, and repeats the same thing as though nothing has been said to him. It is hard to know how to respond to a guy like that.

 

[tweetymom]

He turns a blind eye to what people say, and repeats the same thing as though nothing has been said to him. It is hard to know how to respond to a guy like that.

Well since I agree with him on most things and I love his post, I can’t say the same. I will pray for a little more patience for you and God Bless

 

[zerinus]

Well since I agree with him on most things and I love his post, I can’t say the same. I will pray for a little more patience for you and God Bless

Well, since he is a Calvinist, and what he preaches is pure Calvinism, why don’t you become a Calvinist? If I liked Catholicism better than Mormonism, I would become a Catholic. Since you like Calvinism better than Catholicism, the answer is to become a Calvinist. Don’t you think?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well, since he is a Calvinist, and what he preaches is pure Calvinism, why don’t you become a Calvinist? If I liked Catholicism better than Mormonism, I would become a Catholic. Since you like Calvinism better than Catholicism, the answer is to become a Calvinist. Don’t you think?

There is nothing wrong with being a Catholic Calvinist. After-all, Augustine was the first Catholic Calvinist. I think Ryan Oneil will turn into a Catholic Calvinist very soon. I’m really a Calvinist catholic. But as a Mormon, I don’t think you like Augustine very much since he was part of the apostate church before Joesph Smith restored the apostate church.

 

[tweetymom]

Well, since he is a Calvinist, and what he preaches is pure Calvinism, why don’t you become a Calvinist? If I liked Catholicism better than Mormonism, I would become a Catholic. Since you like Calvinism better than Catholicism, the answer is to become a Calvinist. Don’t you think?

Oh hey you are so kind. When have I ever been rude to you. And maybe I am a little of both. I didn’t say I like anything better than anything else. Heck I even like you!

 

[Tomb54]

We do the same thing, we confess our sins and repent. However, we go directly to God in our confession, since all sin is againts God. Then we return in faith in the truth of the gospel. Since most Protestant Churches do not have the sacrament of reconcillation, are you saying that God does not hear our confession of our sins; therefore, He does not forgive us?

I thought in Calvinism you could not fall short because to sin you must have freewill (it has to be a choice to follow or not). No freewill no sin is how I understand it.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I thought in Calvinism you could not fall short because to sin you must have freewill (it has to be a choice to follow or not). No freewill no sin is how I understand it.

If you want to understand Calvinism, please take the time and study this website. I would suggest to click on the gospel section first to see if you agree with us on the gospel.

monergism.com/

 

[Tomb54]

I don’t believe it’s biblical to say that you have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. That’s a modern day invention which started with Charles Finney in the 2nd Great Awakening in America. Your point 2 is interesting. All Christians strive to live a life worthy of our call, yet we all struggle with sin daily in this body and current world system, and our enemy the devil is real. So, what happens when you fall short of the worthy goal of living a Christ-like life daily? What do you do?

To live a life worthy of our calling can be summarized as this:

1. Love the Lord your God with ALL or your heart, soul, strenght, and mind
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

It might be a modern term but the bible does say you need to accept Jesus as your savior it just does not say that guarantees your salvation as they believe. It also says you must persevere which undermines the OSAS/predetermination belief that many have because if you must perservere then you must have a choice not to, thus freewill. Fall short one was answered above.

I completely agree with the last 2 statement but to love you must be able to have complete freewill to who you love for it to be true love.

 

[Tomb54]

Part from your webpage that you linked
God regenerates, and we, in the exercise of the new gracious ability given, repent. God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37), draws His chosen ones to Christ. The gospel confesses “We love him because He first loved us.” Whereas before we had no desire for God, God’s regenerating grace gives us desire, willingness and delight in His person and commands. Faith and works are the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it.

Question? How do you repent or are drawn if you have no choice? Sorry but I still do not understand how you can make a true choice without freewill. I still say that no freewill = being forced with or without your consent. Love not freely given means not really given.

another part
A restoration to God’s original intent for us, the end for which we were created.

What is the intent for those you say are not part of the elect? It goes against this part of the article which says God’s intent is that we are all to be with Him. If this is the intent and we have no freewill to resist then all people on earth should be going to heaven based on this article. I will study it more detail later as I have to go but not finding the assurance so many Calvinist say they have in this belief.

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, I am not saying that you are not forgiven.

There is great power in the sacrament of reconciliation and you are missing out on that. Since God gave the apostles, as leaders of His Church, the authority to forgive sins it goes without saying that this is a worthwhile and beneficial practice that protestants are missing out on.

Interesting comment since there are no new Apostles. I’m glad we can approach the throne of grace directly and with confidence because of our mediator and Great High Priest, Christ Jesus.

Jesus the Great High Priest

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. - Apostolic Tradition

 

[2nd_Adam]

It might be a modern term but the bible does say you need to accept Jesus as your savior it just does not say that guarantees your salvation as they believe. It also says you must persevere which undermines the OSAS/predetermination belief that many have because if you must perservere then you must have a choice not to, thus freewill. Fall short one was answered above.

I completely agree with the last 2 statement but to love you must be able to have complete freewill to who you love for it to be true love.

Ah, the idle of free will loved by both my Arminian Protestant brothers, and my Catholic siblings. There is no free will taught in the Scriptures apart from Adam and Eve prior to the fall.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Free willy, fact or fiction?

 

[Tomb54]

Ah, the idle of free will loved by both my Arminian Protestant brothers, and my Catholic siblings. There is no free will taught in the Scriptures apart from Adam and Eve prior to the fall.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb134/vdao/free_willy-1.jpg

Free willy, fact or fiction?

So Adam and Eve had freewill thus were made in the **Image and likeness of God **but after the fall we (their Children) were not so we became like creatures no different than dogs or cats except God wanted to make us love Him if He so elected us? Did I get that right because that is how it sounded by your explanation?
If we do not have freewill then we are not made in the Image of God and Jesus did not take on our nature when He became human (or whatever He became since is was not the same Human man we were since by your definition we had no freewill any longer (or are you saying Jesus had no freewill either?)).