"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Rocket_Man]

I will pour out water upon the thirsty ground, and streams upon the dry land; I will pour out my spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing upon your descendants. (Isa 44:3)

And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.

for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit." (Acts 1:5))

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:** And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:** And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

 

[Rocket_Man]

‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, 'that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. (Act 2:17-18)

Joel 2

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[ryanoneil]

And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:** And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:** And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Yes the first days of the New Covenant overlap with the last days of the Old.

In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe (Heb 1:1-2)

And Jesus’ name is invoked in Baptism.

**Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38).

He said to them, “Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?” They answered him, “We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit.” He said, “How were you baptized?” They replied, “With the baptism of John.” Paul then said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19:2-6)

Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’ (Acts 22:16)**

 

[ryanoneil]

Joel 2

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

In days to come, The mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established as the highest mountain and raised above the hills. All nations shall stream toward it; many peoples shall come and say: “Come, let us climb the LORD’S mountain, to the house of the God of Jacob, That he may instruct us in his ways, and we may walk in his paths.” For from Zion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (Isa 2:2-3)

For I will take you away from among the nations, gather you from all the foreign lands, and bring you back to your own land.I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. (Ezek 36:24-27)

Thus they shall know that I, the LORD, am their God, since I who exiled them among the nations, will gather them back on their land, not leaving any of them behind. No longer will I hide my face from them, for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD. (Ezek 39:29)

 

[Rocket_Man]

he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe (Heb 1:1-2)

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Where’s the water?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Thus they shall know that I, the LORD, am their God, since I who exiled them among the nations, will gather them back on their land, not leaving any of them behind. No longer will I hide my face from them, for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD. (Ezek 39:29)

Ryan, respectfully, these scriptures have been hashed over and over. I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church. However, almost twenty years ago, I learned of the unfailing love of our Lord, Jesus Christ through reading His Living Word. I repented of my sinful life, and with that came a change of heart for the sin I once loved. I learned of His love while spending many days in prayer and reading His Word. I still recall a day, when I could finally lift my eyes over my shame and look upon a statue of Jesus that was in a flower garden of church near where I lived. And it was that day, that I stretched out my hand and touched that statue with tears falling from my eyes and rolling down my cheek. It was that day, that I was regenerated. I was baptized six months later.

 

[tweetymom]

Ryan, respectfully, these scriptures have been hashed over and over. I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church. However, almost twenty years ago, I learned of the unfalling love of our Lord, Jesus Christ through reading His Living Word. I repented of my sinful life, and with that came a change of heart for the sin I once loved. I learned of His love while spending many days in prayer and reading His Word. I still recall a day, when I could finally lift my eyes over my shame and look upon a statue of Jesus that was in a flower garden of church near where I lived. And it was that day, that I stretched out my hand and touched that statue with tears falling from my eyes and rolling down my cheek. It was that day, that I was regenerated. I was baptized six months later.

Rocket now you have made me cry!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Ryan, respectfully, these scriptures have been hashed over and over. I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church. However, almost twenty years ago, I learned of the unfalling love of our Lord, Jesus Christ through reading His Living Word. I repented of my sinful life, and with that came a change of heart for the sin I once loved. I learned of His love while spending many days in prayer and reading His Word. I still recall a day, when I could finally lift my eyes over my shame and look upon a statue of Jesus that was in a flower garden of church near where I lived. And it was that day, that I stretched out my hand and touched that statue with tears falling from my eyes and rolling down my cheek. It was that day, that I was regenerated. I was baptized six months later.

Hi Rocket_Man, what caused you to believe you had to find a new church?

 

[ryanoneil]

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Where’s the water?

“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48)

 

[Rocket_Man]

“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48)

I rest my case.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Hi Rocket_Man, what caused you to believe you had to find a new church?

God’s Holy Law

 

[lil_flower_luv]

God’s Holy Law

Sorry, new to this thread. Can you elaborate?

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan, respectfully, these scriptures have been hashed over and over. I was baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church. However, almost twenty years ago, I learned of the unfailing love of our Lord, Jesus Christ through reading His Living Word. I repented of my sinful life, and with that came a change of heart for the sin I once loved. I learned of His love while spending many days in prayer and reading His Word. I still recall a day, when I could finally lift my eyes over my shame and look upon a statue of Jesus that was in a flower garden of church near where I lived. And it was that day, that I stretched out my hand and touched that statue with tears falling from my eyes and rolling down my cheek. It was that day, that I was regenerated. I was baptized six months later.

That is a wonderful conversion story. Praise God for sharing his grace in many ways.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Sorry, new to this thread. Can you elaborate?

I was raised in the CC from infancy. Had twelve years of catholic education, served as an altar boy and all that. But the church was just a thing, there was no spiritual enlightenment or personal awareness of the risen Christ. My parents took me to Mass every Sunday, because they had been taught that not going was sin. For us, the CC experience was a learned system of law and sin. Repentance was “go tell it to the priest” behind the veil instead of the Living God who searches the heart.

As I may have mentioned before, as a child my favorite time at Mass was when the new monthly epistle would come out so I could read ahead all the month’s first, second, and Gospel reading. Imagine that!

Because I was spiritually dead, I proceeded to live a life that I was destined to do. I was a slave to sin and sin is what I practiced. One day while sitting on the kitchen table, my brother asked, “Has anyone ever told you about Jesus Christ”. Well that was quite an announcement coming from my older brother, for he had been in and out of drug treatment since his early teens. His love for sin led him to Portland where he sold his body to other men to support his drug habit. But now sitting there on that kitchen table, he was a changed man and a bible toting one that all the family tried to avoid. Because we knew in our hearts that something He had was real, because his changed life was the testimony to the truth of what he carried in his back pocket, a wallet size bible.

After he asked me that question, “Has anyone ever told you about Jesus Christ”, I ran out of the house and into my car and drove off. I still continued to live a drug, alcohol, and adulteress lifestyle, filled with prostitues lying and such. The workings of sin took it’s toll to where at the end I had nothing left. And it was then that I remembered the question my brother had asked me. And it was then that I picked up a bible and began to read it. And it was then that I saw who I was, a man eternally condemned before the law.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

 

[ryanoneil]

I rest my case.

What are you resting your case on?

 

[2nd_Adam]

What are you resting your case on?

I think Rocket Man is resting his case on this:

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. - 1 Corinthians 1:17

Originally Posted by ryanoneil
“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48)

 

[tweetymom]

What are you resting your case on?

probably Jesus.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I was raised in the CC from infancy. Had twelve years of catholic education, served as an altar boy and all that. But the church was just a thing, there was no spiritual enlightenment or personal awareness of the risen Christ. My parents took me to Mass every Sunday, because they had been taught that not going was sin. For us, the CC experience was a learned system of law and sin. Repentance was “go tell it to the priest” behind the veil instead of the Living God who searches the heart.

As I may have mentioned before, as a child my favorite time at Mass was when the new monthly epistle would come out so I could read ahead all the month’s first, second, and Gospel reading. Imagine that!

Because I was spiritually dead, I proceeded to live a life that I was destined to do. I was a slave to sin and sin is what I practiced. One day while sitting on the kitchen table, my brother asked, “Has anyone ever told you about Jesus Christ”. Well that was quite an announcement coming from my older brother, for he had been in and out of drug treatment since his early teens. His love for sin led him to Portland where he sold his body to other men to support his drug habit. But now sitting there on that kitchen table, he was a changed man and a bible toting one that all the family tried to avoid. Because we knew in our hearts that something He had was real, because his changed life was the testimony to the truth of what he carried in his back pocket, a wallet size bible.

After he asked me that question, “Has anyone ever told you about Jesus Christ”, I ran out of the house and into my car and drove off. I still continued to live a drug, alcohol, and adulteress lifestyle, filled with prostitues lying and such. The workings of sin took it’s toll to where at the end I had nothing left. And it was then that I remembered the question my brother had asked me. And it was then that I picked up a bible and began to read it. And it was then that I saw who I was, a man eternally condemned before the law.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Okay, what I am seeing is that you didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus until you left the Church. As a child and young adult you went through the motions of being a Catholic and your heart was never in it. You saw your Faith as, “You sin, you repent, you sin, you repent…you disobey the law, you face consequences, etc.” However, God’s Law never changes. So here’s what I don’t understand: Why did you think it would be different in a new church?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Okay, what I am seeing is that you didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus until you left the Church. As a child and young adult you went through the motions of being a Catholic and your heart was never in it. You saw your Faith as, “You sin, you repent, you sin, you repent…you disobey the law, you face consequences, etc.” However, God’s Law never changes. So here’s what I don’t understand: Why did you think it would be different in a new church?

God’s law does not change and it remains Holy and Pure. But it has served it purpose. I am dead. Listen, through the law I was condemened to eternal hell. Why after being united to Christ, would I again return to same Law that was meant to slay me?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

God’s law does not change and it remains Holy and Pure. But it has served it purpose. I am dead. Listen, through the law I was condemened to eternal hell. Why after being united to Christ, would I again return to same Law that was meant to slay me?

I am sorry. I am not following you. Why would being a Catholic condemn you to hell? Besides, as a Catholic, you couldn’t have been any more united to Christ. Catholics consume the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ at every Holy Communion (John 6:56). We become living tabernacles of Christ immediately after receiving Holy Communion. I have trouble seeing how some people could give that up unless they did not understand their Faith.