"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[lil_flower_luv]

Now it’s your turn. Explain this desire to me.

What is the object of your desire?

What is it that springs forth the motivation for you to desire it?

It’s the same motivation you have. I love Jesus so much that I will do all He asks. I achieve this through following and obeying His Church - through the Sacraments He Himself gave us to become spiritually closer to Him. The result: unexplainable.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I answered your question the same way you tried to illustrate my error, by scripture! But I guess you like to try to keep things simple, so I also answered them simple.

Your answer was an evasion. It was a yes or no question. The scripture you provided did not answer the question.

Do you believe that a person once saved is always saved?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Your answer was an evasion. It was a yes or no question. The scripture you provided did not answer the question.

Do you believe that a person once saved is always saved?

Let’s try this again. If you know what these scriptures mean, then please explain them to me.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

** Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified**

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Let’s try this again. If you know what these scriptures mean, then please explain them to me.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God

 

[Rocket_Man]

"them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. "

I will get to yours, please explain the rest of this one above without asking me a bunch of more questions. Just good old solid Bible teaching is what I asking from you.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I will get to yours, please explain the rest of this one above without asking me a bunch of more questions. Just good old solid bible teaching is what I asking from you.

I explained it above.

Those he foreknew.

What did God foreknow?

Our faith? Our works? Our love for him? Our prayer’s requesting divine assistance? Our obedience? ALL OF THE ABOVE?

God calls all men, but not all men respond. All men have been made alive in Christ. Jesus is drawing all men to himself. Some will come, others will not.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth,** will draw all people to myself**.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

 

[Rocket_Man]

It’s the same motivation you have. I love Jesus so much that I will do all He asks. I achieve this through following and obeying His Church - through the Sacraments He Himself gave us to become spiritually closer to Him. The result: unexplainable.

There is nothing I want more that to hear of your love for Jesus. Because I know that all else flows from this love. Without it all of life is meaningless. Do you believe that you could ever walk away from this love that you have?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Those he foreknew.

WHAT?

"them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. "

Try again, keep going down the rest of the verse.

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s try this again. If you know what these scriptures mean, then please explain them to me.

How can we, unless someone explains it to us?

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 8:30-31[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

WHAT?

"them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. "

Try again, keep going down the rest of the verse.

I already did this. You are stalling because you have no response.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

whom he did foreknow—>he also did predestinate---->whom he did predestinate---->he also called—>he also justified----he also glorified

What did God foreknow about those whom he did foreknow?

Our faith? Our works? Our love for him? Our prayer’s requesting divine assistance? Our obedience? ALL OF THE ABOVE?

 

[guanophore]

I never said that they cannot fall back into sin. But they are no longer bent towards sin because Christ is their new master. It is incompatible with everything Christ is.

This might be a misunderstanding about the nature of original sin. In Rom. 7 Paul talks about his experience of the struggle against the “old man” or the “sin nature”. Roman Catholics call this “concupiscense” or the tendency toward sin. We have this throughout the time we live in a fallen world, in our physical bodies, which were born under original sin.

While I agree that a life of sin is contrary to life in Christ, the tendency toward sin is endemic to who we are as human beings.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I already did this. You are stalling because you have no response. Our faith? Our works? Our love for him? Our prayer’s requesting divine assistance? Our obedience? ALL OF THE ABOVE?

You might be considered a heretic by your own Church

“Those who, like the Pelagians, seek the reason for predestination only in man’s naturally good works, evidently misjudge the nature of the Christian heaven which is an absolutely supernatural destiny. As Pelagianism puts the whole economy of salvation on a purely natural basis, so it regards predestination in particular not as a special grace, much less as the supreme grace, but only as a reward for natural merit.”

Source
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[guanophore]

If you have answered this, please pardon me as I missed it. What brings you here to CAF?

*** Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee***.

I’m am here to tell others my story and learn how this story is applicable in the CC.

It seems that your mission here is primarily evangelistic, Rocket.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You would be a considered a heretic by your own Church

Those who, like the Pelagians, seek the reason for predestination only in man’s naturally good works, evidently misjudge the nature of the Christian heaven which is an absolutely supernatural destiny. As Pelagianism puts the whole economy of salvation on a purely natural basis, so it regards predestination in particular not as a special grace, much less as the supreme grace, but only as a reward for natural merit.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

You are distorting my post and ignoring the scriptures I posted.

God’s grace is required for our salvation. We can reject this grace, however. God knows who will and who will not reject his grace.

Try to deal with what I actually posted, including the scripture passages, rather than changing the subject.

FYI, from the catechism:

993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

You might be a considered a heretic by your own Church

“Those who, like the Pelagians, seek the reason for predestination only in man’s naturally good works, evidently misjudge the nature of the Christian heaven which is an absolutely supernatural destiny. As Pelagianism puts the whole economy of salvation on a purely natural basis, so it regards predestination in particular not as a special grace, much less as the supreme grace, but only as a reward for natural merit.”

Source
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Rocket, where did Chesterton say that he denied original sin or believed that one could get to heaven by his works?

He, in fact, said:

We can’t do it without God’s grace, but without our cooperation he won’t save us.

 

[guanophore]

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

What the Apostle is saying is that we are no longer slaves to the flesh. Once Jesus has set us free from sin, we are able to choose to live by the Spirit. If it were not possible for Christians to “live after the flesh” then he would not be instructing them on how to avoid it.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It seems that your mission here is primarily evangelistic, Rocket.

LOL - theres no doubt that it is I that is being evangelized!

 

[guanophore]

Because I have friends that had the same conversion without catholic baptism, it’s hard to see the infant baptism fitting into the story.

I can understand why it is difficult. You have been contaminated with a deficient soteriology.

The CC claims that baptism regenerates.

Not just the CC, but all the ancient Apostolic Churches that have preserved their teachings, including those not in unity with the successor of Peter.

In my case after infant baptism, I was degenerating, living the life of sin and death under the Holy Law. And I was in living to serve the flesh because I had not been born of God.

When I read comments of yours like this, it gives the impression that you think this cannot happen to a regenerated person, but that is false.

Secondly, the justification doctrine leaves the adopted child of Christ without assurance. I don’t know how you can read scripture without sensing the security that is in Jesus Christ.

Clearly you have a misundersanding of the doctrine of justification.

When I was received into the loving arms of our Lord, Jesus Christ, it didn’t come with any strings attached. He didn’t say that He would take me only if I promised to agree to "go sin no more”.

Really? It is interesting that you posted all those verses about how a life of sin is not compatible with Christ…

I knew who I was, for the Living Word had showed it to me. I was lazy, sinful, and selfish. I was King! Knowing who I was and how I had lived previously, how could I ever uphold any commitment to try to start back over and live a life without sin if something inside me didn’t change too? And His answer to that question was His promise to give me new heart and help.

I am glad that you had a powerful experience of God’s grace. It sounds like it was very transforming for you.

So when I look at the doctrine of Justification in the CC. I see the workings of old sin and law. Not much different than the old covenant. You sin, you repent, and hopefully you don’t sin a mortal one and die before you get a chance to repent and end up in purgatory. And if you really screw it up too much, then your sure to end up in hell.

It really does seem like you don’t understand. If you are willing, you might be able to come to understand. Or, if you just want to evangelize Catholics, you can ignore what the Church really teaches, and cling to your misunderstanding.

So when He says “Work out your own salvation” it isn’t for working righteous deeds so that I can hopefully  get to heaven someday,  instead He’s encouraging through this new calling ,“to run with it”, “chase it “ and to “pursue it”.

I often wonder why this verse applies this way to Protestants, but not to Catholics? How come we are not allowed to do this? Is it because we are Catholic?

 

[guanophore]

You haven’t brother. you are indeed a child of God.

There are plenty of children of God that ignore the Teachings of Scripture. You are also a good example of how this happens.

 

[guanophore]

Because your waiting for the simple answer so you can launch another one of your spears.

If there is no target upon which they can land, why would that worry you?

Maybe there is a possibility that there is something lacking in your theology?

I have shared with you a very sincere story about myself

Yes, it is a great joy. All of heaven rejoices as well.

and the nature of God’s salvation.

No, actually, what you have been sharing is your perception of it, which is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

**

Rocket_Man:
I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved, and none of it is by my own doings, it is the work of Christ in me.**

When Catholics say this, you tell us that something is wrong with our idea of justification, and that we lack assurance.