The supposed "Great Apostacy"

  • Thread starter Thread starter xpirategrrlx
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
xpirategrrlx said:
Ok. So, I have a question that I’m sure has been asked, but the more I look into it (and the more I read these Cathloic vs Mormon threads), the more I wonder.

When exactly did this Apostacy occur? If it truly occurred after the last apostle died, then theoretically, the Church would have been abandoned by Jesus very soon after He created it. My whole life, in my naïveté, I just assumed this Great Apostacy was a more recent thing.

I just have a hard time believing He would leave His church for so long. Especially since, correct me if I’m wrong, we were told He would not abandon His church.

I’m hearing different theories on it and would like to know the forum’s take on things. Is there anything showing an approximate time of this Apostacy? And if there is, doesn’t it contradict what we read in the bible?
Click to expand...
IN SEARCH OF "THE GREAT APOSTASY"
By Patrick Madrid
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MORMON2.htm

Latter-day Saints and the "Great Apostasy"
By: Tim Staples
catholic.com/magazine/articles/latter-day-saints-and-the-great-apostasy
 
Its difficult to conceive of the church being so utterly corrupt after the death of the last apostle that it could be considered a great apostacy. We know what those early Christians went through after the deaths of the apostles and John, that they were sincere believers whom claimed a succession, an inheritance as it were from the apostles, Ignatius, Clement and Justin Martyr come to mind. It cannot be thought of as an on purpose corruption but rather it was something that just happened through error, in which case a bunch of dramatic errors were introduced immediately after John died and the entire church adopted these errors and hence the great apostacy. It hurts to think of how this corruption spread and it must be asked where was God that he allowed the church to fall to the gates of hades? What was the point of sending Christ if he would fail immediately and then however many hundreds of years later the truth would be revealed at last and would conveneintly not be corrupted? That goes for Mormons and these ultra protestant types that have the same sort of view (ie the early church was corrupted when Constantine invented Roman Catholicism).
 
gazelam said:
For some equal time, here’s the link to Hugh Niblety’s essay “The Passing of the Primitive Church: Forty Variations on an Unpopular Theme”
Click to expand...
The following verses suggest that apostasy was not possible, and questions are submitted to our non-Catholic friends for their consideration.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church fell into apostasy, does this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into apostasy for 1800 years, did Jesus remain with the Church “always” as possible?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into apostasy, did Jesus not give the Counselor or did the Counselor simply fail to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church fell into apostasy, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into apostasy? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”
 
How paradoxical that the same John it is who admonishes believers to “test the spirits to see if they be of God” (1 John 4:1a). He elaborated, teaching that “any spirit which dissolves Jesus is not of God” (1 John 4:3a). Particularly, John identifies such a spirit as “the antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.” (1 John 4:3b)

As it was with the spirit that spoke to Muhammad, Jesus was dissolved from God and man, to simply man; from Divine to merely human. The Trinity denied. As it was with the spirit who spoke to Joseph Smith, Jesus was dissolved from eternal to created being. The Trinity denied.

I am aware of exactly zero evidence that either Muhammad or Joseph Smith did anything at all to test the spirits. I am convinced that the same spirit spoke to each of them.
 
I am aware of exactly zero evidence that either Muhammad or Joseph Smith did anything at all to test the spirits. I am convinced that the same spirit spoke to each of them.
Click to expand...
:clapping::yup:
 
gazelam said:
For some equal time, here’s the link to Hugh Niblety’s essay “The Passing of the Primitive Church: Forty Variations on an Unpopular Theme”

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=116
Click to expand...
This is contained at the beginning of the Article…
The views expressed in this article are the views of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Maxwell Institute, Brigham Young University, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

In all fairness I think it would be much more helpful to post a link to an article on the subject that DOES represent the views of the LDS church. 🤷

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
This is contained at the beginning of the Article…
The views expressed in this article are the views of the author and do not necessarily represent the position of the Maxwell Institute, Brigham Young University, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

In all fairness I think it would be much more helpful to post a link to an article on the subject that DOES represent the views of the LDS church. 🤷

Peace
James
Click to expand...
The official position of the LDS church on The Great Apostasy. 😉

 
xpirategrrlx said:
Ok. So, I have a question that I’m sure has been asked, but the more I look into it (and the more I read these Cathloic vs Mormon threads), the more I wonder.

When exactly did this Apostacy occur? If it truly occurred after the last apostle died, then theoretically, the Church would have been abandoned by Jesus very soon after He created it. My whole life, in my naïveté, I just assumed this Great Apostacy was a more recent thing.

I just have a hard time believing He would leave His church for so long. Especially since, correct me if I’m wrong, we were told He would not abandon His church.

I’m hearing different theories on it and would like to know the forum’s take on things. Is there anything showing an approximate time of this Apostacy? And if there is, doesn’t it contradict what we read in the bible?
Click to expand...
You’re right-the Mormons are wrong.

but you are correct the apostasy is more recent. As a matter of fact we are in the middle of it. It is in progress and will soon (in the near future) will become more obvious.

That’s all I can say without having the CAF police bar me from this thread.
 
po18guy said:
How paradoxical that the same John it is who admonishes believers to “test the spirits to see if they be of God” (1 John 4:1a). He elaborated, teaching that “any spirit which dissolves Jesus is not of God” (1 John 4:3a). Particularly, John identifies such a spirit as “the antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.” (1 John 4:3b)

As it was with the spirit that spoke to Muhammad, Jesus was dissolved from God and man, to simply man; from Divine to merely human. The Trinity denied. As it was with the spirit who spoke to Joseph Smith, Jesus was dissolved from eternal to created being. The Trinity denied.

I am aware of exactly zero evidence that either Muhammad or Joseph Smith did anything at all to test the spirits. I am convinced that the same spirit spoke to each of them.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how these verses tie Christ to the Trinity (including verses for clarity)

1 John 4 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Latter-day Saints confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Based on my understanding of the Trinity, the conditions laid out in these verses are met by both the LDS view of the Godhead and the Orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity. My $0.02 worth…
po18guy said:
As it was with the spirit who spoke to Joseph Smith, Jesus was dissolved from eternal to created being.
Click to expand...
LDS doctrine is that God and man have existed since the beginning.
 
gazelam said:
LDS doctrine is that God and man have existed since the beginning.
Click to expand...
Yes, LDS do believe that man has a core “intelligence” that is co-eternal with God (and presumably for those that subscribe to the view of an infinite regress of Gods (that God the Father had a Father, who had a Father, etc), the Father also has a core intelligence as well).

However, there is a clear distinction between how Trinitarians view God, and how Latter-day Saints view God. Trinitarians believe that “God” has eternally existed as three distinct Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the nature of God to exist as three distinct Persons. There never was a time when this relationship didn’t exist. It is therefore an eternal relationship, and each Person of the Trinity has eternally existed as such.

In contrast, LDS believe that God the Father (and Heavenly Mother) spiritually begot sons and daughters. Yes, each has a core, eternal intelligence that is uncreated, however the Father and Mother spiritually begot us, putting on “clothes”, if you will, on that core, prior to our physical begetting. Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, was the literal firstborn spirit child of the Father and Mother, our Elder Brother. The Holy Ghost is another spirit son of the Father. The Godhead was then formed as a covenant between the three, however it certainly did not exist eternally if we follow the logic of LDS teaching on spiritual begetting (the Son and the Holy Ghost had to be spiritually begotten, like all of us, before the Godhead could be formed). So in a sense, we are all, including the Son/Jesus/Jehovah, created, in contrast to the Catholic view.

Some helpful quotes from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

***There is indeed indication that the intelligence dwelling in each person is coeternal with God. It always existed and never was created or made (D&C 93:29). In due time that intelligence was given a spirit body, becoming the spirit child of God the Eternal Father and his beloved companion, the Mother in Heaven. This spirit, inhabited by the eternal intelligence, took the form of its creators and is in their image (Ballard, p. 140).

To the Prophet Joseph Smith it was revealed that we are all literal spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents. He received a revelation of information once made known to Moses: “I [God] made the world, and men before they were in the flesh” (Moses 6:51). This likewise reflects the implication in Numbers 16:22that God is the Father of all, and hence he is “the God of the spirits of all flesh.”

Intelligences were organized before the world was, and among these were many great and noble ones, such as Abraham and Moses. God stood in their midst, saw that they were good, and chose them for responsibilities on earth and throughout eternity (Abr. 3:21-23). Jesus, the firstborn spirit, was preeminent among them. “Jesus…existed with the Father prior to birth in the flesh; and…in the pre-existent state He was chosen and ordained to be the one and only Savior and Redeemer of the human race” (JC, p. 6).
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Premortal_Life

ONLY BEGOTTEN. Jesus Christ is the only being begotten by the Father in mortality. His full title is “the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.” Since Mormons believe all humans were spiritually begotten by the Father before creation, “Only Begotten” is understood as being limited to mortality.

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Firstborn_of_God

***Fundamental to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the concept that all human beings were born as spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents before any were born as mortals to earthly parents. Latter-day Saints believe that the eldest and firstborn spirit child of God is Jehovah and that it was he who was later born with a physical body to mary as Jesus Christ. That is, Jehovah of the Old Testament became Jesus Christ of the New Testament when he was born into mortality. The Psalmist refers to the Messiah as the firstborn (Ps. 89:27), and the apostle Paul speaks of Jesus as the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29; cf. Heb. 2:17) and as the “firstborn of every creature” (Col. 1:15). Perhaps the most authoritative statement on the subject is from the Savior himself, who declared to the Prophet Joseph Smith, “I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn” (D&C 93:21; see also Church of the Firstborn). In 1909 the First Presidency of the Church declared: The Father of Jesus is our Father also. Jesus Himself taught this truth, when He instructed His disciples how to pray: “Our Father which art in heaven,” etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God-the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity [MFP 4:203]. [See also “Origin of Man,” included in Doctrinal Expositions of the First Presidency in Appendix.] ***

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ#Jesus_Christ:_Firstborn_in_the_Spirit
 
Latter-day Saints believe that God achieved his exalted rank by progressing much as man must progress and that God is a perfected and exalted man: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another” (TPJS, p. 345).***

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhood
 
LivingWaters7 said:
. . . That is the great secret. . … if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another" (TPJS, p. 345).
Click to expand...
It sounds like the Mormon conception of God is of an un-necessary being! So the universe could get along fine without God (“our” God), since there are other Gods that can handle things, and were doing so before our God became God and could do so if our God were not God. Since any individual god or set of gods - and by extension the entire category of gods and goddesses - are unnecessary - I wonder what Mormons think is the necessary thing brings these unnecessary, contingent beings into existence, makes it possible for them to relate and procreate, and keeps prevents these contingent beings from switching into non-existent beings.
 
xpirategrrlx said:
However if they reason that the Apostle John fell away, it could fit that he lost his authority, but wouldn’t that cause him to be stripped of the benefit to still walk the Earth? If I remember correctly the 4 who still walk the earth were given the privilege for their faithfulness. I think if they lost the authority, that would make them part of the apostasy…
Click to expand...
Bingo! 😃
 
iepuras said:
I am in my mid-30’s and we were taught this load of horse manure back when I was a teen in the LDS church. We were a “chosen” and “rising” generation, and in the celestial kingdom, everyone would be so impressed with us because we were alive during this time. Well, they are telling the same load to the teens now.

Yeah, I was so worried about not being perfect as a teen, I didn’t want Jesus to return!
Click to expand...
Oh yes we were taught this too & I am in my mid 20s lol.
 
TheIrishman said:
Except the LDS church believes that John is still present on the earth and never lost the priesthood, along with the 3 nephites so what exactly were these 4 people doing during the 1800+ years of apostacy? why weren’t they converting people, or keeping alive the sacraments? Or better yet, keep the church afloat.
Click to expand...
xpirategrrlx said:
I completely forgot about them! I always wondered if I’d bump into some misplaced immortal as I was growing up. Lol

By yes, what WERE they doing? Aren’t we told to spread the good word? If they were doing their jobs, maybe there wouldn’t have been a great Apostacy!
Click to expand...
OR - one could ask…Why did they not hasten to find Joseph Smith and Co…once they heard that the day of restoration had come?

Wouldn’t John - the disciple whom Jesus loved - and who rested his head on Jesus’ breast at the last supper - and alone of the twelve sat at the foot of the cross with Mary -
Wouldn’t John not hasten to the restored Church and reside even today in or around Salt Lake City?
xpirategrrlx said:
However if they reason that the Apostle John fell away, it could fit that he lost his authority, but wouldn’t that cause him to be stripped of the benefit to still walk the Earth? If I remember correctly the 4 who still walk the earth were given the privilege for their faithfulness. I think if they lost the authority, that would make them part of the apostasy…
Click to expand...
Yes - the Catch 22 in the argument.

Peace
James
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top