The Symbolism of John 6

[bibleapologist]

A good possibility, actually supported by scripture (unlike your assertion) is that God knew that evil was brewing in Cain’s heart.

6: The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen?
7: If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."

A good possibility… but not likely the reason that God didn’t have respect unto Cain’s offering. The more biblically correct interpretation here is the interpretation that I offered.

Obviously, as we see in the next verse, Cain did not master it.

BTW, I hope you do know that grain offerings to the Lord were actually prescribed in the OT, so they could hardly be displeasing in and of themselves to God.

Yes, Cain did not master it.

And Yes, wheat and barley offerings were prescribed… but they were never for an atonement for sin. That was always a spotless lamb… which only God could supply.

BA

 

[DianJo]

What you have just shown is that the Seder meal, and the Lord’s supper are symbolic events that remind us of a deeper truth.

The Seder meal foretold the coming salvation in Christ, while the Lord’s supper that we participate in today “remind” us of what Christ has done for the world, and in us personally.

BA

I’m afraid you’re projecting your own bias onto the “meaning.”

With the Jews, there is nothing “symbolic” about the Passover meal. When they celebrate it, it and they are present in that event as it happened 3000 years ago. The word used to describe our word “remember” is anamnesis sp?) and it means to make present, not just to remember and it has sacrifical overtones. The only time this word is used is when it is associated with sacrifice and it’s only used twice.

We do the same at Mass. It and we are present in that moment when Jesus made His sacrifice on the cross. We do what He instructed us to do to have Him present with us forever. Just like the Passover, God said they were to celebrate this feast perpetually so that they would remember and “ratify” their covenant with God each year. We do this at every Mass when we receive His Body and Blood at Holy Communion. He turned the old covenant sacrifice into the new covenant sacrifice, He changed the Passover meal into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - the new covenant.

 

[bibleapologist]

I’m afraid you’re projecting your own bias onto the “meaning.”

With the Jews, there is nothing “symbolic” about the Passover meal. When they celebrate it, it and they are present in that event as it happened 3000 years ago. The word used to describe our word “remember” is anamnesis sp?) and it means to make present, not just to remember and it has sacrifical overtones. The only time this word is used is when it is associated with sacrifice and it’s only used twice.

We do the same at Mass. It and we are present in that moment when Jesus made His sacrifice on the cross. We do what He instructed us to do to have Him present with us forever. Just like the Passover, God said they were to celebrate this feast perpetually so that they would remember and “ratify” their covenant with God each year. We do this at every Mass when we receive His Body and Blood at Holy Communion. He turned the old covenant sacrifice into the new covenant sacrifice, He changed the Passover meal into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - the new covenant.

I am afraid you have been terribly deceived.

You can say that you are present at the crucifiction 'till the cows come home… but that doesn’t make it so.

The Mass, the Eucharist, and the Sacraments are all illusions to make you believe you are practicing true Christianity.

That might be hard to swallow… but it’s the truth.

What I have is real, I am a witness to the truth of the saving grace of Jesus Christ and His blood. It is my prayer that you will begin to desire something that is real.

BA

 

[Randy_Carson]

Post #64

BA

Yes, I read that before asking previously. I have just read it again, but perhaps I’m dense.

What are you saying?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am afraid you have been terribly deceived.

You can say that you are present at the crucifiction 'till the cows come home… but that doesn’t make it so.

The Mass, the Eucharist, and the Sacraments are all illusions to make you believe you are practicing true Christianity.

That might be hard to swallow… but it’s the truth.

What I have is real, I am a witness to the truth of the saving grace of Jesus Christ and His blood. It is my prayer that you will begin to desire something that is real.

BA

There are no sacraments instituted in the scriptures?

None at all?

 

[bibleapologist]

Yes, I read that before asking previously. I have just read it again, but perhaps I’m dense.

What are you saying?

I am saying that Cain’s offering was tainted with sin. He was attempting to earn his own way into God’s favor and that just doesn’t happen.

Cain’s offering was the first example of a ‘works salvation’.

Abel’s offering was provided by God. Abel wasn’t giving anything to God that he had a part in creating or bring into existence… it was wholly provided by God… and completely offered without pride.

BA

 

[DianJo]

A good possibility… but not likely the reason that God didn’t have respect unto Cain’s offering. The more biblically correct interpretation here is the interpretation that I offered.

Yes, Cain did not master it.

And Yes, wheat and barley offerings were prescribed… but they were never for an atonement for sin. That was always a spotless lamb… which only God could supply.

BA

You just won’t try to understand, will you? The Mass is THE sacrifice of Christ. We make it present just as it was the day it happened. It corresponds to the Passover where Jews make the Passover present again, just as it happened thousands of years ago, as directed by God. The Passover is celebrated perpetually just as the Mass is.

You keep insisting that the sacrifice is the fruit of the vine or the wheat of the bread - it is NOT. That’s only preparation with which to celebrate the actual sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is the lamb of sacrifice offered up to God for the foriveness of sins - once and for all for our salvation just as the lamb’s sacrifice was the salvation of the Jews at Passover.

And it wasn’t because Cain offered a grain offering that it was unacceptable. It was the evil and “wrongness” of is heart that caused God to be displeased. He didn’t offer his sacrifice with love toward God. God tells Cain that his sacrifice would’ve been completely acceptable if not for the lack of love/charity in is heart. Cain’s sacrifice has nothin to do with Mass.

To bad you look at John 6 in a vacuum, without the benefit of the implications of the Old Testament.

 

[DLC]

Christ death on the cross was a once for all sacrifice for never needing to be repeated by a Mass or anything else .
We need to remember that the very last thing that Christ said on the cross before he died was “it is finished.” This means that the work of salvation is completed for us for all time. We do not have work to be saved . Salvation is offered to us as a free gift Eph 2:8-9, Romans 6:23. Here are some verses to help you understand the biblical position on this subject.
Heb 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but nowonce at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASU

Heb 9:11-13

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy placeonce for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASU

 

[bibleapologist]

You just won’t try to understand, will you? The Mass is THE sacrifice of Christ. We make it present just as it was the day it happened. It corresponds to the Passover where Jews make the Passover present again, just as it happened thousands of years ago, as directed by God. The Passover is celebrated perpetually just as the Mass is.

The more I read your explanation of the Mass, the more rediculous it seems. Why do you ignore passages of scripure that insist Christ died once? On one hand you pretend to place yourself at the crucifiction during mass… then you pretend to bring to crucifiction to the present day on the other hand.

You’re right, the passover corresponds to the crucifiction… but it is not a replacement for the crucifiction… it was an illustration. And your mass is not a replacement for the crucifiction although certain elements might illustrate the crucifiction.

You keep insisting that the sacrifice is the fruit of the vine or the wheat of the bread - it is NOT. That’s only preparation with which to celebrate the actual sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is the lamb of sacrifice offered up to God for the foriveness of sins - once and for all for our salvation just as the lamb’s sacrifice was the salvation of the Jews at Passover.

The sacrifices of the Old Testament were ILLUSTRATIONS of the coming sacrifice which was Jesus. Which was to be offered once.

And it wasn’t because Cain offered a grain offering that it was unacceptable. It was the evil and “wrongness” of is heart that caused God to be displeased. He didn’t offer his sacrifice with love toward God. God tells Cain that his sacrifice would’ve been completely acceptable if not for the lack of love/charity in is heart. Cain’s sacrifice has nothin to do with Mass.

To bad you look at John 6 in a vacuum, without the benefit of the implications of the Old Testament.

It WAS because Cain offered a grain offering… it was an abomination because it represented a works salvation. Abel’s offering was acceptable, not because of his heart, but because it represented the offering that GOD gave… not from our works, but it was all the work of God.

Both offerings were illustrations… but only one was acceptable because it illustrated the truth.

BA

 

[bibleapologist]

Nice quotes DLC.

BA

 

[DianJo]

I am afraid you have been terribly deceived.

You can say that you are present at the crucifiction 'till the cows come home… but that doesn’t make it so.

The Mass, the Eucharist, and the Sacraments are all illusions to make you believe you are practicing true Christianity.

That might be hard to swallow… but it’s the truth.

What I have is real, I am a witness to the truth of the saving grace of Jesus Christ and His blood. It is my prayer that you will begin to desire something that is real.

BA

What I have bolded - You have what?

God showed us and instructed just how to worship Him from the begining of salvation history - it always involved sacrifice! Peace offerings, sin and guilt offerings were always with sacrifice. It was the only way to make a covenant with God. That’s what Passover was and that’s what our Mass is. The Mass is that same sacrfice that Jesus made for us for our salvation.

I have the one thing that is more real than anything you “think” you can offer me! I have the Eucharist, every weekday and every weekend. I receive Jesus Christ Himself into my body and my soul in the leteral sense! I can’t get that from a book! You have what, now?

Where is the sacrifice in protestant worship? Don’t see any, never have, never will. All I see is a so called “pastor” who claims to understand scripture preaching his ideas, those of which have been misinterpreted for 500 years leading all those who will listen to misunderstand as well. Preaching and singing doesn’t follow the pattern that God gave us.

Protestants are the ones that are deluded into thinking that they are the ones who are doing as God says. I don’t find one early christian group preaching and singing, preaching and singing. I see the early christians offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in their weekly gatherings breaking bread and teaching that the bread and wine are the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

Sorry to be condescending but you got me all riled up with your ignorant comments about the Mass - so watch yourself. In fact, it made me angry! You might also want to re-read the forum rules on respecting the beliefs of the Catholics - especially since you are on a Catholic board.

Read how the early christians actually worshipped and what they taught - you’ll see that they are thoroughly Catholic and you might come to see that you are the one that as been deceived.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am saying that Cain’s offering was tainted with sin. He was attempting to earn his own way into God’s favor and that just doesn’t happen.

Cain’s offering was the first example of a ‘works salvation’.

Abel’s offering was provided by God. Abel wasn’t giving anything to God that he had a part in creating or bring into existence… it was wholly provided by God… and completely offered without pride.

BA

Let me see if I understand you correctly…Abel didn’t have to do any work at all to build up his flock? To protect it from wild beasts? To lead the animals to water or to pasture? God simply gave Abel the animals and Abel turned right around and gave some of them back to God, and this was pleasing to God?

And meanwhile, Cain was earning a living by the sweat of his brow farming and seeking to earn his way into God’s favor? And this “proves” that Catholics can’t earn their way into heaven.

Wow. You have to be working pretty hard yourself to come up with an anti-Catholic “works salvation” scenario like that. I don’t suppose anyone has ever told you that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that we are justified by works, have they?

Look, this is far more simple than you’ve made it out to be and the scriptures themselves explain it to us:
“Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.” (Genesis 4:4)
I know it’s going to disappoint you to have one of your favorite anti-Catholic arguments refuted, but this passage is not primarily about the soteriology of the Catholic Church; it’s all about Jesus.

Abel’s offering of the firstborn of his flock required the shedding of blood, and it pre-figured the Passover, the Temple sacrifices, and, ultimately, Jesus Himself.

The Firstborn. The Shed Blood. The Sacrifice. The Eucharist.

Everything points to the Eucharist.

 

[RNRobert]

Don’t forget that the Orthodox (whose roots can also be traced to the Apostles) also consider the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood of Christ. It wasn’t until the Protestant Reformation that people entertained different ideas about the Lord’s Supper.I agree with DianJo- Protestantism has no sacrifice. It is a gutted form of Christianity, which is why I left it for the Catholic Church. I agree with DianJo about your comments regarding the Mass- to quote Merle Haggard, “You’re walking on the fighting side of me.”

 

[bibleapologist]

What I have bolded - You have what?

I have new life. I have been made a new creature. Not metaphorically or figuratively… but really.

I am not just living a reformed life, or a religious one… but my very being has been changed by God… literally!

I commune daily with God… He speaks to me, and I speak with Him. He teaches me, and I can ask questions and get real answers.

You can’t get any more real than that. What I have literally, is what Catholics are deceived into believing they have.

But, what you have is an illusion.

BA

 

[Randy_Carson]

Christ death on the cross was a once for all sacrifice for never needing to be repeated by a Mass or anything else .
We need to remember that the very last thing that Christ said on the cross before he died was “it is finished.” This means that the work of salvation is completed for us for all time. We do not have work to be saved . Salvation is offered to us as a free gift Eph 2:8-9, Romans 6:23. Here are some verses to help you understand the biblical position on this subject.
Heb 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but nowonce at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after thiscomes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASU

Heb 9:11-13

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy placeonce for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASU

Amen! Catholics love the book of Hebrews as we do all 73 books of God’s word.

But how does this passage (which refers to the OT priests - not the NT priesthood) have anything whatsoever to do with the Eucharist that the Christian Church celebrates as commanded by Jesus himself?

Are you saying that when Christ said , “It is finished”, he meant that the work of salvation was completed for all time? Did I understand you correctly?

 

[bibleapologist]

Look, this is far more simple than you’ve made it out to be and the scriptures themselves explain it to us:
“Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.” (Genesis 4:4)
I know it’s going to disappoint you to have one of your favorite anti-Catholic arguments refuted, but this passage is not primarily about the soteriology of the Catholic Church; it’s all about Jesus.

Abel’s offering of the firstborn of his flock required the shedding of blood, and it pre-figured the Passover, the Temple sacrifices, and, ultimately, Jesus Himself.

I agree with everything I have quoted you saying above.

Which bring us to the elements of the Lord’s Supper. All Christians are supposed to observe it. All it does though is “illustrate” what all the sacrifices served to illustrate… the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself.

BA

 

[DianJo]

The more I read your explanation of the Mass, the more rediculous it seems. Why do you ignore passages of scripure that insist Christ died once? On one hand you pretend to place yourself at the crucifiction during mass… then you pretend to bring to crucifiction to the present day on the other hand.

The more I read your responses the more ridiculous you seem. I AM NOT IGNORING THE FACT THAT CHRIST’S SACRIFICE WAS ONCE AND FOR ALL. It is re-presented to God PERPETUALLY asGod instructed. God gave us the Lamb in Jesus and we offer that perfect sacrifice back to God just as Abel did, without pride but with love for God.

You’re right, the passover corresponds to the crucifiction… but it is not a replacement for the crucifiction… it was an illustration. And your mass is not a replacement for the crucifiction although certain elements might illustrate the crucifiction.

No, it’s not a replacement for the crucifixtion - I never said it was. Jesus’ sacrifice is the fulfillment of the Passover. It is now the Mass.

The sacrifices of the Old Testament were ILLUSTRATIONS of the coming sacrifice which was Jesus. Which was to be offered once.

Yes, ageed!

It WAS because Cain offered a grain offering… it was an abomination because it represented a works salvation. Abel’s offering was acceptable, not because of his heart, but because it represented the offering that GOD gave… not from our works, but it was all the work of God.

This has not one thing to do with the topic of discussion. Cain’s sacrifice has nothing to do with this

Both offerings were illustrations… but only one was acceptable because it illustrated the truth.

And the Mass illustrates the truth!

BA

I am truly sorry that you have such a hard time with this. I’s a shame you won’t even try to grasp it. You might learn something.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Read how the early christians actually worshipped and what they taught - you’ll see that they are thoroughly Catholic and you might come to see that you are the one that as been deceived.

Early Christians?

You mean Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Hus and Wesley? That early?

Or Billy Sunday, Billy Graham and Oral Roberts early?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I agree with everything I have quoted you saying above.

Which bring us to the elements of the Lord’s Supper. All Christians are supposed to observe it. All it does though is “illustrate” what all the sacrifices served to illustrate… the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself.

BA

Wonderful. Progress has been made. So, perhaps it was more about the blood than it was about your eisegesis of the “works salvation”.

Now let’s move to the book of Exodus:

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 2 "This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. 3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb a] for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 **That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire—head, legs and inner parts. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the LORD’s Passover. **(Exodus 12:1-11)

What do you think? If an Israelite family had put the blood on the doorposts and then sent out for Chinese instead of eating the meat, do you think that the Angel of Death would have passed over that family?

Me neither.

You have to eat the Lamb, BA. Jesus is the Lamb of God. You have to eat His flesh or you have no life in you.

The Eucharist. Everything points to the Eucharist.

 

[DianJo]

I have new life. I have been made a new creature. Not metaphorically or figuratively… but really.

I am not just living a reformed life, or a religious one… but my very being has been changed by God… literally!

I commune daily with God… He speaks to me, and I speak with Him. He teaches me, and I can ask questions and get real answers.

You can’t get any more real than that. What I have literally, is what Catholics are deceived into believing they have.

But, what you have is an illusion.

BA

You know, you seem to practice a double standard here.

You say you have new life, fine, I can’t dispute that. You’re a new creature? So are we when we receive the Eucharist!
You go on to say that it’s not metaphorically or figuratively - but really!
That’s the same as the Eucharist! How 'bout that?!

Your very being is changed? So are we when we receive the Eucharist and, hey, it’s the same with the Eucharist. It still looks the same on the outside but its very substance is changed!

You commune daily with Him? So do we, in the Mass. He teaches us and speaks to us and we can even speak to Him, too and what’s even better is that He actually, physically becomes part of us when we receive the Eucharist! And, NO, you can’t get any more Real than that!

You say all those things happen to you, yet you won’t concede that God can make the same thing happen in and with the Eucharist. Double standard!