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VociMike
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And yet who is it who says today “this is a hard saying, who can listen to it?” just like those who left Christ? Is it Catholics (and Orthodox, let’s not forget them) or is it mainstream Protestantism?
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VociMike
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The meaning of John 6:63 is clear, for Christ uses an almost identical formula in Matt 16:17: “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven”. That is, one cannot grasp the truths that Christ is revealing by human intellect, but only by the grace of God. It has nothing to do with literal vs. symbolic. It has to do with our inability to know and understand God’s revelation without God’s grace.
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SPH1
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No, you’re the one in eternal danger. And don’t tell us you have “faith” in Christ…you don’t. Not fully anyway.
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Linkowski
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I guess I am not understanding - Mat 16:17 is just saying that it was by spiritual means, not physical means that Peter made his confession of faith…same with us…
John 6:44 KJV 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 1:13 KJV 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
1 Corinthians 3:6-7 KJV 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
I am not seeing how these line up with what I wronte about John 6:63 and the context…
My original posting…
In John 6:63…
John 6:63 KJV 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Isn’t Christ saying…you need to look at this from a spiritual perspective and not a physical or carnal perspective? He was responding to their questioning and murmuring for they were repulsed at the idea of actually eating his flesh and drinking his blood…literally…
John 6:60-61 KJV 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
So, then he said…
John 6:63 KJV 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Certainly, he was not speaking of the giving of his body on the cross when he spoke of “the flesh” in John 6:63 (as Mr. Carson seems to insinuate at the beginning of this thread)…the giving of his flesh was necessary for our salvation - the flesh in that sense profits us greatly, but again, he was correcting them that they might not take these statements in from a physical or carnal standpoint (which would cause one to think of eating his literal flesh and drink his literal blood). Note, again, he was referring to the words that he was speaking…He is speaking of a spiritual intake of Christ.
The Bible many times over speaks of “eating the word of God” but we are not really eating the words…it is our spiritual food and all by faith (believing). And Jesus was called the Word of God…John 1:1. In this same context, Jesus says…
John 6:47 KJV 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
It seems to me, when we come to faith and continue in faith, and we are constantly entering in the most Holy Place through the veil, which is His flesh and by His blood for continual confession and repentance…
Hebrews 10:19-20 KJV 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
…and also, remembering His great sacrifice at the Lord’s Supper. What a great thing - to remember and meditate on His great sacrifice on the cross…this is a spiritual feast!
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PrinceCaspian
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Bibleapologist, if names mean anything (and they do in the bible) then you should live up to yours a face the objections raised to your points, instead of just telling Catholics they are going to hell. Apologists argue, they don’t/shouldn’t slander. Your first post on this thread fostered many intense and interesting counter posts - You need to respond to them…because you need to prove them wrong…so that you can show why your position is right!
Also, I raise what I consider to be serious objections to your point, please consider them. I have considered yours. I take your arguments very seriously - which is why I am spending 30 min to reply to them. Please pay me the same courtesy.
I’m only going to deal with the last two questions right now.
Jesus says “I have come down from heaven” - How are we supposed to take this? Does he really mean what he’s saying? or is he just fooling around. “Heaven is a powerful example-but I don’t really mean Heaven” No that’s not what jesus says.
Jesus meant what he said, that’s why the Jews were freaking out!!!
How about when the Jews quarrel about Christ giving his flesh to eat? Why would the Jews quarrel about that? They wouldn’t quarrel if they understood him to be speaking analogically/symbolically, because that would just mean “I’m here to nourish you-with my teachings” The Jews already knew that Jesus was there to nourish them…that’s why they were following him up to this point. So if the Jews knew they were there to learn from Jesus what were they quarreling about? Could they have taken him literally? is that why they were fighting?
Hypothesize for a moment, consider that the Jews really did take him literally, at his word, what then would their reaction have been? Would they freak out? Yes!!! You better believe it. The Jews could never partake of the blood of anything! Let alone a human being. And they couldn’t eat human flesh. So they would have fought amongst themselves. Well that’s what we see in John 6. We see Jews quarreling!!! About what? Christ’s teaching! And I have already shown that they weren’t quarreling over a symbolic interpretation…what’s so hard about that? but they were fighting about the literal interpretation.
And Jesus even goes up to the disciples and asks if they will leave. And Peter tells them no! Who else are we to go to!!! Your have the words of eternal life. So even though Peter doesn’t fully understand, and also peter realizes that the Jews have left over a literal interpretation, he still stays with Christ. That’s faith!!!
Also, I raise what I consider to be serious objections to your point, please consider them. I have considered yours. I take your arguments very seriously - which is why I am spending 30 min to reply to them. Please pay me the same courtesy.
The Jews in John 6 couldn’t understand something-that’s true. We know they didn’t like the teaching of Christ-whatever it was. The Jews asked four questions in John 6 “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph?” “Do we not know his father and mother?” “Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” AND “How can this man give us his flesh to eat”
I’m only going to deal with the last two questions right now.
Jesus says “I have come down from heaven” - How are we supposed to take this? Does he really mean what he’s saying? or is he just fooling around. “Heaven is a powerful example-but I don’t really mean Heaven” No that’s not what jesus says.
Jesus meant what he said, that’s why the Jews were freaking out!!!
How about when the Jews quarrel about Christ giving his flesh to eat? Why would the Jews quarrel about that? They wouldn’t quarrel if they understood him to be speaking analogically/symbolically, because that would just mean “I’m here to nourish you-with my teachings” The Jews already knew that Jesus was there to nourish them…that’s why they were following him up to this point. So if the Jews knew they were there to learn from Jesus what were they quarreling about? Could they have taken him literally? is that why they were fighting?
Hypothesize for a moment, consider that the Jews really did take him literally, at his word, what then would their reaction have been? Would they freak out? Yes!!! You better believe it. The Jews could never partake of the blood of anything! Let alone a human being. And they couldn’t eat human flesh. So they would have fought amongst themselves. Well that’s what we see in John 6. We see Jews quarreling!!! About what? Christ’s teaching! And I have already shown that they weren’t quarreling over a symbolic interpretation…what’s so hard about that? but they were fighting about the literal interpretation.
Exactly! But if the Jews had taken him literally (as I suggest about) then wouldn’t Jesus have called them back…and said, “No, you misunderstand me. Come back”? He doesn’t.
And Jesus even goes up to the disciples and asks if they will leave. And Peter tells them no! Who else are we to go to!!! Your have the words of eternal life. So even though Peter doesn’t fully understand, and also peter realizes that the Jews have left over a literal interpretation, he still stays with Christ. That’s faith!!!
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PrinceCaspian
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I’d love to believe what you believe, but you need to prove it to me from the bible. So far you have asserted, but you haven’t proved it…and again, I think I raise serious objections to your fallible interpretation.
More appropriately though, John 6 was a parallel with the symbolism of the Manna in the wilderness (the request for a miracle like Manna from heaven is what Jesus responded to). The miracle of Manna in the wilderness was God’s provision for His people… which is the “Word of God” for a New Testament Christian.
Yes the manna in the desert is used by Christ to draw a parallel for the Jews in the crowds. But…wait, the Manna in the wilderness is not symbolism. That happened. God sent actual normal bread to the Jews in the desert! You have not supported your claim that God’s only NT provision is “The Word of God”- nowhere in the Word of God does it claim that The Word of God is the only provision. Certainly the Bible is fruitful for instruction/correction etc… but I don’t believe you can show a single passage where it claims to be the only provision for us. For instance, what about God’s grace? That’s not a word… that’s something totally different. God provides for his people by giving us a share in his grace…
Well actually we’re Christians. So if names mean anything (and I think we do) we believe in Christ. No where in the bible does it claim that faith should be enough… I’m not a sensationalist-I’m trying to have a sober biblically based conversation with you. I’m not sure what you have against mystery, but surely Christ coming to earth at all is a perfect example of what a mystery really is! Jesus is the mystery! God is a mystery! The fact that God would send his only Son for us is the very definition of mystery! Don’t you agree?
I want the TRUTH above all things. And if you have it, I want it! But you need to answer the objections to your first post and also my objections here. As I said above, I take the time to consider your posts… you should do me the same kindness. And unless you’re willing to do the same, then we shouldn’t talk.
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VociMike
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Well, we have spirit, but it is not our spiritual means that avail. No, Matt 16:17 tells us that only by God’s grace can we understand God’s revelations. We cannot understand them through our own power (spiritual or physical).
My comments on John 6:63 were in response to your assertion that a proper understanding of that verse results in not believing that Christ was telling us to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood. The verse says no such thing. Rather, it emphasizes that only by grace can people accept the difficult saying that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. That was true then, and it continues to be true today. And just as others in Matt 16:17 had the wrong understanding of who Jesus was, so today do most Protestants have the wrong understanding of what the Eucharist is.
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Mickey
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Do not pass judgement when you give advice,for you know not God’s mysteries.
(St Ephraim the Syrian)
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bibleapologist
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You’re right, apologists argue… and that is what I am here to do. But no, I don’t have to address every point that I am confronted with. Most people here are not interested in the truth which is evident because they have not addressed every one of my points.
When I see the statement “you have not responded to every point made on this thread” it is an indication that the other side has been refuted, and they are trying to put me in a defensive position. I have the stronger argument, why would I willingly move into a defensive position?
This is the first post I have seen by you, so I don’t have a problem responding to you. You seem to be interested in the truth, and you seem to believe you have a strong argument.
I will respond to you, and thank you for addressing my points.
I won’t be able to until tonight though… I have to go to work.
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Linkowski
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I have to be honest with you, that is quite a stretch (what I have boldfaced)…I am looking at the scripture and its meaning. In Matthew 16:17 - He is explaining to Peter how the truth about Christ has been revealed to Him - this verse 63 cannot be compared. Here he is explaining the nature of His words - not speaking about who is revealing the truth to them. He is saying - this eating of my flesh and drinking of my blood must be viewed from a spiritual aspect and not a physical aspect.
When you read the Bible, are you eating God’s Word? Ofcourse not, but we do eat it from a spiritual aspect.
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Sean_Boyle
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Let’s’all say it together…
Judgemental…
Careful you just vilolated some forum rules.
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Mannyfit75
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Reminder of the Forum Rule
CONDUCT RULES
7. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
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Randy_Carson
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No. As a matter of fact, he wasn’t saying that at all. This misunderstanding just compounds the problem.
Grasping at Straws: John 6:63
“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken are spirit and they are life.”(John 6:63)
These words were spoken by Jesus shortly after delivering his teaching on the Eucharist, and some people claim that they indicate that Jesus was speaking figuratively when he commanded us to eat his body and drink his blood. However, this would be a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when he said,“the flesh counts for nothing.”
First, notice that whenever Jesus referred to his own body and blood, he said"my flesh"or"the flesh of the Son of Man". Here are the examples:
“This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)
"Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.” (John 6:53-56)
At this point, the narrative explains that the disciples were on the verge of revolt over this teaching. It is at this point that Jesus tells them that they cannot understand this teaching with their natural minds. Here is the verse in context: “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, ‘This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?’ Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, ‘Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.’” (John 6:60-63)
In John 6:63, Jesus uses the phrase “the flesh” instead of “my flesh” or “the flesh of the Son of Man” because he is not talking about his own body; he is referring to natural man. Man is a tripartite being composed of Spirit, Soul (or mind) and Body/Flesh. Our flesh is that created, corruptible part of us; the spirit is that which is capable of relating to God and receiving his revelation, and the mind/soul is the union of spirit and body. Here are some scriptures that illustrate this:
“You judge according to the flesh” (John 8:15)
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being nephesh – soul].” (Genesis 2:7) (dust is the body, breath of life - pneuma - is the spirit, living being is the soul) Jesus tells the grumbling Jews (who can’t understand how he would give them his flesh to eat) that they cannot grasp it with their natural minds because it is a mystery beyond the ability of “the flesh” to understand. This is the same manner of speaking used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 when he is distinguishing between fleshly or carnal Christians and those who are discern the things of God with their spirits.
Second, it might be worth noting the obvious fact that Jesus cannot be saying that HIS own flesh “counts for nothing” otherwise his death upon the cross would be meaningless. Instead, we know that his own body, his flesh, was broken and pierced for our sake; no Christian would deny that. Therefore, since HIS flesh does count for something, he must have been referring to “flesh” other than his own in v. 63.
Thus, the one verse that many Protestants cling to as an argument against the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist does not mean what they falsely claim it means. Ironically, their “proof text” points out precisely why they cannot understand the Eucharist: they are using their flesh instead of their spirits to discern the things of God. Unfortunately, their flesh “counts for nothing”.
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RNRobert
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Exactly! As Jesus explains Nicodemus in John 3:12, if we cannot understand when we are told earthly things, how can we understand when we are told heavenly things?
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DCD
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Linkowski
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Linkowski
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Eden
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The Gospel according to bibleapologist:
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is a cracker which will symbolize my flesh, for the life of the world.
53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us a cracker to eat as symbol of his flesh ?
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, Amen I say unto you: Except you eat* a cracker which is a symbol of *the flesh of the Son of man, and drink grape juice as a symbol of his blood, you shall not have life in you.
55 He that eateth a cracker which is a symbol of my flesh , and drinketh grape juice which is a symbol of my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
56 For *a cracker as symbol of *my flesh is meat indeed: and grape juice as a symbol of my blood is drink indeed.
57 He that eateth a cracker as a symbol of my flesh, and drinketh *grape juice as a symbol of *my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me in symbolic form as crackers and grape juice, the same also shall live by me.
59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread which is symbolic crackers and grape juice, shall live for ever.
60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.
61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying that we must eat crackers and drink grape juice to symbolize his Body and Blood is hard, and who can hear it?
62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you to hear me say that you must to eat crackers and drink grape juice as a symbol of my Body and Blood?
63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth:the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. 66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is a cracker which will symbolize my flesh, for the life of the world.
53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us a cracker to eat as symbol of his flesh ?
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, Amen I say unto you: Except you eat* a cracker which is a symbol of *the flesh of the Son of man, and drink grape juice as a symbol of his blood, you shall not have life in you.
55 He that eateth a cracker which is a symbol of my flesh , and drinketh grape juice which is a symbol of my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
56 For *a cracker as symbol of *my flesh is meat indeed: and grape juice as a symbol of my blood is drink indeed.
57 He that eateth a cracker as a symbol of my flesh, and drinketh *grape juice as a symbol of *my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me in symbolic form as crackers and grape juice, the same also shall live by me.
59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread which is symbolic crackers and grape juice, shall live for ever.
60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.
61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying that we must eat crackers and drink grape juice to symbolize his Body and Blood is hard, and who can hear it?
62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you to hear me say that you must to eat crackers and drink grape juice as a symbol of my Body and Blood?
63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth:the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. 66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
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Joseph_Mary
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As for the previous poster that asked why people at the Crucifixion that believed salvation was through eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His Blood, didn’t do it:
They already had - the previous evening, at the Lord’s Supper. Well, at least John, the Beloved Disciple had already eaten His Body and drank His Blood…as for His Mother, it’s not like she needed the Eucharist to save her! The other Marys there probably received the Eucharist from one of the Apostles, so what was the point of making a spectacle of the situation?
This is all rather disturbing; what is it with people denying the Eucharist? Why do your low-level Protestant “churches” even bother with having communion service every few months if all you’re going to do is sit around and not believe in even the most BASIC of concepts, handed down 2,000 years?
They already had - the previous evening, at the Lord’s Supper. Well, at least John, the Beloved Disciple had already eaten His Body and drank His Blood…as for His Mother, it’s not like she needed the Eucharist to save her! The other Marys there probably received the Eucharist from one of the Apostles, so what was the point of making a spectacle of the situation?
This is all rather disturbing; what is it with people denying the Eucharist? Why do your low-level Protestant “churches” even bother with having communion service every few months if all you’re going to do is sit around and not believe in even the most BASIC of concepts, handed down 2,000 years?
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Cranch
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Bishop Challoner teaches against this wrong interpretation (cannabilism) in his notes in the Douay-Rheims bible:
John 6:63-64*:
*63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 63 “If then you shall see”… Christ by mentioning his ascension, by this instance of his power and divinity, would confirm the truth of what he had before asserted; and at the same time correct their gross apprehension of eating his flesh, and drinking his blood, in a vulgar and carnal manner, by letting them know he should take his whole body living with him to heaven; and consequently not suffer it to be as they supposed, divided, mangled, and consumed upon earth.
64 “The flesh profiteth nothing”… Dead flesh separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man’s flesh, that is to say, man’s natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ,) profit any thing. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ’s flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us.
64 “Are spirit and life”… By proposing to you a heavenly sacrament, in which you shall receive, in a wonderful manner, spirit, grace, and life, in its very fountain.
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