The Tablecloth at The Last Supper?

[JKirkLVNV]

contemplative:

My Bible quotation was taken from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Did you know that 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh was a substantially great amount and a costly amount?

With that in mind…
I still do not believe that Joseph of A. asked for a table linen that was used a couple days prior to Jesus’ death.

That would have been my thinking. Joseph was probably a man of some substance, since he sat on the council. If he was going to spend a great deal of money on the aloe and myrrh, I doubt he would skimp on the cloth by using a table cloth. It’s an interesting conjecture, though.

Also, Mark may have been the only one to mention a clean cloth, but in the face of the other Evangelist’s silence, a strict constructionist or anyone who believed that Scriptures to be accurate in every single detail would have to construe that Mark at least was accurate: it was clean.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I saw the progrom that was on Mother Angelica, when it first aired, several years ago.

The two guest she had on are husband and wife, and are both experts on the shroud. The wife, is a Jewish convert to Catholicism. They have a web-site somewhere in the net.

From what I remember from the TV program;

Their theory is that it may have been the table cloth used at the last supper. The basis for this theory are the stains on the cloth, which are in a semi-circle, in the center. The stains are those of wine and food, and according to the woman, are in the same position that food is place during a Seder meal.

They believe that the table cloth was used for the burial cloth, because the shops had closed, and they did not have a proper burial shroud to place the body of Jesus in. On Easter Sunday, the woman who were going to Jesus’ tomb, were bringing spices and fresh linen, probably a burial shroud. Of course Jesus was already risen when they got there.

Also, the cloth is some 12 feet in length, which is larger than a tarditional burial cloth, but more in line with a table cloth.

 

[_SunShine]

JimR-OCDS:

I saw the progrom that was on Mother Angelica, when it first aired, several years ago.

The two guest she had on are husband and wife, and are both experts on the shroud. The wife, is a Jewish convert to Catholicism. They have a web-site somewhere in the net.

From what I remember from the TV program;

Their theory is that it may have been the table cloth used at the last supper. The basis for this theory are the stains on the cloth, which are in a semi-circle, in the center. The stains are those of wine and food, and according to the woman, are in the same position that food is place during a Seder meal.

They believe that the table cloth was used for the burial cloth, because the shops had closed, and they did not have a proper burial shroud to place the body of Jesus in. On Easter Sunday, the woman who were going to Jesus’ tomb, were bringing spices and fresh linen, probably a burial shroud. Of course Jesus was already risen when they got there.

Also, the cloth is some 12 feet in length, which is larger than a tarditional burial cloth, but more in line with a table cloth.

I’m so glad someone else saw this program.
They also referred to this site The Shroud of Turin Hosted by Barry Schwartz and reference is made to the meaning of the “Clean Cloth”. it’s worth the read. (you’ll find it under:Third International Dallas Shroud Conference Page Updated)

 

[maggieodae]

JKirkLVNV:

That would have been my thinking. Joseph was probably a man of some substance, since he sat on the council. If he was going to spend a great deal of money on the aloe and myrrh, I doubt he would skimp on the cloth by using a table cloth. It’s an interesting conjecture, though.

Also, Mark may have been the only one to mention a clean cloth, but in the face of the other Evangelist’s silence, a strict constructionist or anyone who believed that Scriptures to be accurate in every single detail would have to construe that Mark at least was accurate: it was clean.

So, he washed it… Problem solved.

 

[maggieodae]

VociMike:

That is an intriguing notion. That tablecloth would have really been an altar cloth, given that Jesus offered His Sacrifice upon it. I think it would have been very fitting for it to also be His burial shroud.

Yes, I agree. Intriguing and very interesting.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

maggieodae:

So, he washed it… Problem solved.

Back 2000 years ago in Palestine, without washing machines and such, , things that they considered clean would be pretty raunchy by todays standards in the USA.

 

[maggieodae]

JimR-OCDS:

Back 2000 years ago in Palestine, without washing machines and such, , things that they considered clean would be pretty raunchy by todays standards in the USA.

Well now, they did know how to wash the old fashioned way, and they were quite capable of getting it clean according to the methods of the day. And as cloth was expensive, you can be sure they didn’t just run out to the Fabric shop at the mall and get some.

I can assure you, that growing up on a farm without electricity, we knew how to use a scrub board, and our clothes were always clean and nice. I didn’t have a washing machine until I was grown up. Didn’t need one. Now I couldn’t dream of living without one.

 

[_SunShine]

maggieodae:

So, he washed it… Problem solved.

Hi Maggie,
Sounds like a nice solution but, the authorities noted that there had not been any attempted cleaning. If you look at my last post it gives other meanings to the word “Clean” . It could have meant pure as in holy, etc.

SunShine:

They also referred to this site The Shroud of Turin Hosted by Barry Schwartz and reference is made to the meaning of the “Clean Cloth”. it’s worth the read. (you’ll find it under:Third International Dallas Shroud Conference Page Updated)

 

[contemplative]

I think we need to know more about life 2000 years ago. More about Passover table linens, burial clothes and availability of fabric. I have a book in my collection about life and times of Christ. Hold on a minute while I look.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

maggieodae:

Well now, they did know how to wash the old fashioned way, and they were quite capable of getting it clean according to the methods of the day. And as cloth was expensive, you can be sure they didn’t just run out to the Fabric shop at the mall and get some.

I can assure you, that growing up on a farm without electricity, we knew how to use a scrub board, and our clothes were always clean and nice. I didn’t have a washing machine until I was grown up. Didn’t need one. Now I couldn’t dream of living without one.

Uhm, it was a joke.

 

[maggieodae]

JimR-OCDS:

Uhm, it was a joke.

I know…so was my post.

But I do still know how to use a scrub board.

 

[_SunShine]

JimR-OCDS:

Uhm, it was a joke.

You and Maggie are funny! Maybe it is time to “lighten-up” a little I was only trying to get some good discussion on this theory.

 

[contemplative]

OK…please be patient…there is much to type from this book Daily Life at the Time of Jesus by Miriam Feinberg Vamosh

From page 72
Burying the Dead

And when it was evening, there came a certain rich man of Arimathea, named Joseph, who also himself was a disciple of Jesus.

And Joseph taking the body wrapped it up in a clean linen cloth:

And laid it in his own new monument, which he had hewed out in a rock. And he rolled a great stone to the door of the monument and went his way. ( Matthew 27:57, 59-60)
Jewish bural customs required that a body be buried as soon as possible after death, as were Sarah (Gen 23:2-4) and Rachel (Gen 35:19) Even an exucuted crimnal, say Deu 21:22-23, should be buried before nightfall. Caring for human remains is considered one of the highest forms of a good deed as it is carried out without expectation of a favor returned.

Number 19:16 declares, however, that anyone who toughes a human bone or a grave will be considered ritually unclean. Therefore, elaborate regulations evolved, among them the prohibition in antiquity of bural within the confines of a town. Burial was also not permitted on the Sabbath day. For this reason, after Jesus’ death on the cross Joseph of Arimeathea requested that the body be released to them to be buried before the Sabbath bega, putting off some burieal rituals until the Sabath was over (Mk16:1, Lk 23:56)

More to come. Be patient.

 

[contemplative]

skip a paragraph

Any person, whether rich or poor, was entitled to a prper burial. From the moment of death, the body would not be left unatteded, and the family of the deceased would be comforted by the presence of numerouse friends to see to their needs. The body would be washed, as was Tabitha whom Peter raised from the dead ( Acts 9-37)

Burial in caves was a practice carried out by the wealthy who could afford to purchase theland and hew out the shelves and niches in the cave. Poor pople were buried in the ground in shaft graves about six feet deep and twenty inches long.

Many would accompany the body to the burial place, as is recorded in the funeral at Nain (Lk 7:12) Professinal mourners might be hired, who would accompany the bier barefoot. The procession might stop several times on the way to the gravesite to recite psalms. During or before the procession, music might be played and torches held aloft. ( Mt 9:23 )

Be patient. More to come.

Excuse my typos.

 

[maggieodae]

The Shroud a Tablecloth

1993 - Rebecca Jackson’s historical research indicates Shroud may have also been the tablecloth used at the Last Supper. She notes that Orthodox Jews get a new tablecloth for Passover to insure the purity of the meal. It is highly likely that Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Chevrah Kidusha, the official Jewish burial society. He was thus able to demand Jesus’ body from Pilate, but in all likelihood didn’t have enough time to secure a new, legal burial cloth before sundown - he would have chosen the tablecloth for the Last Supper, used only once, to bury Jesus. The Shroud cloth meets all the requirements for a Jewish burial garment (Tachrichim)and is the right size to cover the table for a Passover supper for 13 people.

 

[contemplative]

The remains of the deceased were anointed with spices and clothed in special wrappings (Jn 19:39-40). An interesting reference to this practice comes from an anecdote in the ancient commentary Genesis Rabba, in connection witht he story of the death of Jacob: "When Rabbi Jonhanan was about to be taken from the world, he said to those who had to attend to him, “bury me in gray clothes which are neither black nor white, so that if I arise and stand among the righteous, I shall not be ashamed, and if I stand among the wicked, I shall not be confounded”. When Rabbi Josiah was about to be taken from the world he said “…bury me in white garments, for I am not ashamed of my deeds, and I am fit to meet the countenance of my Creator”. Grave clothes are mentioned in the story of the burial of both Lazarus (Jn 11:43) and Jesus ( Matthew 27:59)

A small caption above a water color picture dipicting a tomb says…

The practice of bring aromatic spices to the tomb (Lk23:56) derived from the necessity fo disguising the smell of decay for the benefit of those visiting the tomb for mourning rituals int the first days after or for additional burials. For this reason, the tomb was sometimes closed with a rolling stone, as seen in this drawing.

More to come …about weavers of cloth during the time of Christ

 

[_SunShine]

The Shroud a Tablecloth

1993 - Rebecca Jackson’s historical research indicates Shroud may have also been the tablecloth used at the Last Supper. She notes that Orthodox Jews get a new tablecloth for Passover to insure the purity of the meal. It is highly likely that Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Chevrah Kidusha, the official Jewish burial society. He was thus able to demand Jesus’ body from Pilate, but in all likelihood didn’t have enough time to secure a new, legal burial cloth before sundown - he would have chosen the tablecloth for the Last Supper, used only once, to bury Jesus. The Shroud cloth meets all the requirements for a Jewish burial garment (Tachrichim)and is the right size to cover the table for a Passover supper for 13 people.

Maggie, you are gem! That’s the woman from the program!

 

[maggieodae]

Jewish Burial Practices

There were different rituals for those who died a vilolent death.

One of the more interesting avenues of research is the area of burial practices. Could the Shroud have been a genuine Jewish burial shroud? How can we find out? John 19:40 says, “Taking Jesus’ body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.” What were those burial customs?

One of the points of confusion with the Shroud is that it was a custom to wash the body before burial. Yet the Shroud seems to depict a man whose wounds were never cleaned. However there appears to be an exception to this custom for those who have died a violent death. Here is an excerpt from The Jewish Way of Death and Mourning by Maurice Lamm (1969):

“The blood that flows at the time of death may not be washed away. When there is other blood on the body that flowed during lifetime (while alive), from wounds or as a result of an operation, the washing and taharah (purification) are performed in the usual manner.”

“Where the deceased died instantaneously through violence or accident, and his body and garments are completely spattered with blood, no washing or taharah is performed. The body is placed in the casket without the clothes being removed. Only a sheet is wrapped around it, over the clothes. The blood is part of the body and may not be separated from it in death.”

“Where blood flows continually after death, the source of the flow is covered and not washed. The clothes which contain the blood that flowed after death are placed in the casket at the feet.”

Notice how only a single sheet is used. Also, the man on the Shroud is naked because they cast lots for his garments. The reason for this unusual custom was due to the belief that “life is in the blood”. Leviticus 17:11 says, “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

Another reason why the blood must be buried with the body is because it was considered unclean. To touch a corpse was to touch something unclean and therefore become unclean yourself. One would then have to go through a ritual process of becoming clean again.

Blood that flowed after the person died is considered “life blood”. This is the blood that makes atonement. It is the trading of that which gives life for that which brings death (sin). It wasn’t just the blood, but the life in the blood that was the acceptable sacrifice.

Blood that flowed after death was often mixed with blood that flowed before death, this was called “mingled blood”. If there was more than a loss of a “quarter log” of mingled blood, it was considered unclean and must be buried with the body. A log is the content of 6 eggs. A quarter log is 1 ½ eggs. The volume of blood lost from the side-wound must have easily exceeded this measure and is why the man on the shroud is unwashed.

 

[contemplative]

The Weaver

“Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.” John 19:23

There are many references in ancient Jewish texts to the preparation of cloth, fro the sowing of the flaxseed, the combing of the flax, to spinning and weaving. That spinning was done outdoors is understood from a talmudic reference to gossips “who spin their yarn by moonlight” and the “sinner, (who) spins in the street” Linen was sometimes imported from Egypt, although local production was also know, with linen coming mainly from Galilee and wool from Judea.

The most common loom mentioned is a standin loom with the warp stretched between an upper and lower beam, or loom wieghts wtretching the warp. A treadle loom is mentioned it the Talmund as being worked by men.

All of the family’s clothes and blanket were woven in the home, using a standing loom, with weaving begun at the top of the garment.

I don’t know how much light this shed on the subject of this thread but this info is all interesting enough.

I’ll scan the book for more

 

[contemplative]

The Shroud a Tablecloth

1993 - Rebecca Jackson’s historical research indicates Shroud may have also been the tablecloth used at the Last Supper. She notes that Orthodox Jews get a new tablecloth for Passover to insure the purity of the meal. It is highly likely that Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Chevrah Kidusha, the official Jewish burial society. He was thus able to demand Jesus’ body from Pilate, but in all likelihood didn’t have enough time to secure a new, legal burial cloth before sundown - he would have chosen the tablecloth for the Last Supper, used only once, to bury Jesus. The Shroud cloth meets all the requirements for a Jewish burial garment (Tachrichim)and is the right size to cover the table for a Passover supper for 13 people.

I still do not imagine Joseph of A. saying " Hey! Get me the table cloth from Jesus’ Last Supper!" Maybe…just maybe Joseph of A. used the Passover table cloth from his own household.