The Third Secret of Fatima *Was* Fully Revealed!

[Iowa_Mike]

The Church already knew about liturgical abuses before Fatima; she’s been dealing with them since apostolic times, if the Epistle to the Church in Corith says anything.

Yet she didn’t tell this to the Vatican when her Bishop ordered her to tell everything? That would be disobedience. How strange, especially since she wrote a memoir in obedience to her Bishop.

Then why did Mary tell them to children? Did she take advantage of their ignorance? Only Satan works like that!

The Church has known about trials since her beginning, if the Book of Revelation says anything. And the Church would be guilty of falsehood - which completely contradicts her infallibility - if she would hide knowledge for diplomatic reasons.

Nothing new. The Church knows dangers will come. Jesus Himself prophecised they would come.

Again, Jesus prophecised an apstasy and His Apostles warned about it.

Essentially the same, as in, prayer and penance? Yes I agree. The essense of a private revelation is the message of the gospel: Prayer and penance. Becuse private revelation is oriented toward Public Revelation. Even Sister Lucia confirmed this when she was asked what Our Lady wanted.

I’ve already addressed this in my first post.

I’d like to know if you have read The Secret Still Hidden, The Devil’s Final Battle and some of the suppotive citations given in the books? Your general dismissive arguments don’t touch with any specificity on the persuasive arguments made in these two books, how come?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Seems that you mistake opinion for fact.

The facts are that the the seer, Sr Lucia, and those in authority in the Church have stated differently than you do.

Hardly.

I think you choose to ignore all the facts you don’t like.

The confirmed quotations of Sr. Lucy cast great doubt on the unconfirmed quotes (far fewer in number).

What about the quotes from Pius, Raztinger, John Paul II, Ciada, Ottaviani, etc?

What about the likening to Akita?

What about Bertone’s very well-document recent changing of his stories, evasive answers, and refusing to answer any simple, direct questions?

What authority over the Church and the faithful does the Vatican Secretary of State hold, do you think, pray tell?

Why are you comfortable dismissing the words of so many other Church authorities?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Nice fallacies. Now I see your true intent. Good day.

Yes, good day to you as well. Your accusations that those honestly searching for the fact of the matter here are attacking the Church are extremely offensive and insulting. People argue like this - by attacking the messenger, and with generalities - when they have no substantive argument.

I love my Church with all my heart and soul and I will say, humbly, that my knowledge of Her history, doctrines, and dogma, via the extensive readings of the saints and mystics, and the fathers, throughout all the ages, as well as virtually all the modern apologists such an Hahn, Keating, Armstrong, Madrid, Currie, and several others, is very high.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

“the Secret should not fall into alien hands”? What does that even mean?

You’d have to ask the Cardinal (not possible at the moment) but to me it seems obvious he thought having it fall into unauthorized hands would be bad - it could be revealed early, badly, etc.

Since when are Our Lady’s messages even particularly ‘secret’ - since when are they not for the whole world? None of this ‘secrecy’ surrounded St Margaret Mary, St Catherine Laboure, St Bernadette, St Faustina, not even Sr Agnes of Akita.

This is difficult to respond to because it sounds like you are questioning Fatima itself. According to the seers it the Virgin herself who called these messages ‘Secrets’. However, she did not indicate they weren’t for the all world - that’s kind of the whole point here!!

Is there some ‘special knowledge’ - connected with the Fatima apparitions - that a precious few must guard with their lives, apparently forevermore? Is Our Lady incapable of herself revealing messages at the appropriate time for them? Why not appear again NOW to Sr Lucy or someone else, if the message pertained so particularly to our times?

You’re running with your bad assumption here that the Secret was to remain sealed forever.

Your second assumption - that because people didn’t do what was asked of the Our Lady and God failed - is also false.

The Creator and Sustainer of the universe, of course, exists apart from time which is an artifact of the physical world. He knows, and knew, exactly how the Secret would be handled. If it was not handled according to instructions, he knew that beforehand.

Both Scripture and history are rife with examples of people being commanded something by God, under threat of punishments, then neglecting the command and falling into punishment. I’m sure you can think of many. This one is no different, yes?

Mary doesn’t appear again (or, maybe she will) because she accomplished her mission - by definition - the first time. Men not responding as requested is not her failure and is not a surprise to Heaven, we can be sure.

If Sr Lucy said all should be revealed at her death if not sooner, don’t you think it WOULD have been revealed at her death? Is the Church hiding its light under a bushel contrary to Our Lord’s (and, apparently, Our Lady’s) command?

Again, salvation history if FULL of examples of God’s chosen people - the Church and the old Israel before her - not living up to their end of the Covenant!

Furthermore, the title of this thread is only partially tongue-in-cheek: The full Secret actually has been largely revealed to those really paying attention. John Paul II’s homily at Fatima in 2000 spoke directly to the nature of the Secret, leaving a very clear idea of its contents.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

There is ZERO evidence. There is no hidden secret of Fatima.

Thisle Thisle, where art thow Thisle? There is plenty of evidence that there is something amiss regarding revelation of the Third Secret of Fatima…in a earlier post I asked if you have read the Secret Sill Hidden, The Devil’s Final Battle and some of the supportive citations…have you?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Thisle Thisle, where art thow Thisle? There is plenty of evidence that there is something amiss regarding revelation of the Third Secret of Fatima…in a earlier post I asked if you have read the Secret Sill Hidden, The Devil’s Final Battle and some of the supportive citations…have you?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Nothing but opinons. I doubt that any of the authors have access to the actual “Secret” they are talking about.

Those in authority of the Church have stated that it has been released. You can believe otherwise but it is not fact to do so, only opinion. An opinion that has no actual support of fact unless you can produce what you think is the acutal “Secret”.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Our Lady never demanded anything of the church at Fatima. She could not demand, she had no right to demand, anything of church authorities through private revelation at any time. Unless that revelation is directly to the Pope himself, and even then it would still be binding only upon him as an individual - she would be unable to demand anything of the Church as a whole.

To call Our Lady’s requests for a consecration* demands* - and consider the Church bound by them in any way, or to presume that they are in any way wrong for not doing something that they in no way had to do, is arrogant in itself on the part of those devoted to Fatima. It puts her apparitions on the same level as public revelation which as an article of faith they are not.

Besides which, John Paul 2 had such a devotion to her that I’m sure if he didn’t actually achieve an acceptable consecration of Russia (and firstly - reports were Sr Lucy said he had, secondly - it was NOT something the bishops were in any way bound to do, so it isn’t even a question of whether what they did was acceptable - anything they did was more than what was required of them) then it was because it simply can’t be achieved.

You obviously do not have a good grasp of the subject.
It seems to me that you need to delve into the long history of the secret

 

[benedict_XVIII]

You are talking without knowing me or even trying to understand what I have said.
You seem to think I do not believe in apparitions and messages. What is that stupid conclusion based on? You are absolutely wrong. I firmly believe in the messages of Fatima, Lourdes, Our lady of the Miraculous Medal, and the Divine Mercy.

My point, if you could have stopped being so self righteous and thought about it, is that Catholics do not have to believe any messages from private revelations and nor are these messages necessary for our salvation although some posters try to imply they are.

By the way, to say there is a difference between “do not have to believe” and “believe or not” is frankly silly. They both mean exactly the same thing.

Dear Thistle,

Thank you for being so insulting and aggressive.
A real modern Catholic.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Nothing but opinons. I doubt that any of the authors have access to the actual “Secret” they are talking about.

Those in authority of the Church have stated that it has been released. You can believe otherwise but it is not fact to do so, only opinion. An opinion that has no actual support of fact unless you can produce what you think is the acutal “Secret”.

If you doubt that any of the people quoted in this thread had access to the actual Secret, you are doubting a lot more authorities in the Church than I, my friend!

It is a fact that there is a lot of hard evidence that something was missing in the official unveiling of the secret.

Mother Angelia, Mr. Socci, and millions of faithful Catholics can see that.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this question. And no hard feelings.

 

[benedict_XVIII]

Thank you Paul.
I am fully on your side
Not because I like to humiliate others, but because The Truth is a Christian value that as Catholics we are bound by our faith to defend.
I also quit the discussion.
I have found nothing that can make me change my view, much as I was really prepared to do so.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Nothing but opinons. I doubt that any of the authors have access to the actual “Secret” they are talking about.

Those in authority of the Church have stated that it has been released. You can believe otherwise but it is not fact to do so, only opinion. An opinion that has no actual support of fact unless you can produce what you think is the acutal “Secret”.

Dear ByzCath,

Let me ask you the same questions…have you read either book? Because Christopher Ferrara is a high profile Catholic Lawyer. In his book, The Secret Still Hidden he presents facts not opinions…

It will be hard to have a conversation with you if all you do is conjecture that it is opinion without having actually read them…have you read them?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[benedict_XVIII]

One last thing and I leave you to your excercise:

If Our Lady is saying that we are in for a huge punishment, this is not contrary to Scripture.

Jesus said: Convert yourselves or you will all die the same way

It seems to me that the Pope was echoing this words when he gave us a message for Lent saying even us Catholics we need a new conversion

Here is the link:

ad2000.com.au/articles/2008/mar2008p20_2766.html

Thank you all for the nice subject.
Love to everybody.
Even if we disagree, we must respect each other and be fraternal.
Otherwise we would be betraying our faith.

 

[VitaminC]

Nothing but opinons. I doubt that any of the authors have access to the actual “Secret” they are talking about.

Those in authority of the Church have stated that it has been released. You can believe otherwise but it is not fact to do so, only opinion.

An opinion that has no actual support of fact unless you can produce what you think is the acutal “Secret”.

No – that’s sophistry. That statement is false.

 

[VitaminC]

Our Lady never demanded anything of the church at Fatima. She could not demand, she had no right to demand, anything of church authorities through private revelation at any time.

You’re telling the Queen of Heaven what she has a right to do?

What the… !!!

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I’m starting to think it’s best to close the thread at this point lest it descend into a food-fight (and then possibly get DELETED).

I doubt positions are going to shift much from here on out.

 

[VitaminC]

There is plenty of evidence that there is something amiss regarding revelation of the Third Secret of Fatima…in a earlier post I asked if you have read the Secret Sill Hidden, The Devil’s Final Battle and some of the supportive citations…have you?

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

Without referring to anyone in particular, certain individuals may intentionally post arguments they know to be false just to confuse the issue for new readers to the topic and frustrate those who are trying to have meaningful discussion – it’s a form of sophistry. There’s also the problem on message boards with abusive individuals posting under multiple monikers.

 

[VitaminC]

I’m starting to think it’s best to close the thread at this point lest it descend into a food-fight (and then possibly get DELETED).

That’s what they (or is it he?) wanted to begin with. To do this is to give them exactly what they wanted. They do this every time the topic of Fatima comes up. You’re assuming that everyone involved had an intention from the beginning to engage in honest, rational discussion. That is not the case.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

No – that’s sophistry. That statement is false.

It is a fact that the Church has stated though the Pope that the Third Secret has been fully revealed. I believe that the current pope confirmed this while he was the head of the Sacred Congregation on Doctrine of the Faith.

So those who deny this fact must then provide proof of such, and one such proof would be be to provide the secret.

To say that we are not dealing in facts when we believe what the Church has said is just insane.

Let me try this. I have read a book in which the author claims to have seen scrolls in a Tibetian Buddhist monastery that were written by Christ when he came to this monastery after the resurrection.

So when you tell me that these scrolls do not exist because Christ did not go there can I say that this is just your opinion?

If so then there is no discussing the matter of the Third secret either.

This is nothing but another one of the many conspiracy theory threads and really has nothing to do with true spirituality.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Without referring to anyone in particular, certain individuals may intentionally post arguments they know to be false just to confuse the issue for new readers to the topic and frustrate those who are trying to have meaningful discussion – it’s a form of sophistry. There’s also the problem on message boards with abusive individuals posting under multiple monikers.

There are a lot of approaches to debate. I don’t take the ‘bate’ as they say from people who argue from emotion and opinion rather than facts. It appears to me that those who are being so brash lack facts. You can’t win an argument from someone who is in a temper and putting forth unsubstantiated statements. Let’s drill down to the facts. If people want to challenge those of us who believe the Third Secret has not been fully revealed let them refute the facts presented. Take a look at Paul’s posts and then take a look at those on the other side of the argument…I rest my case.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

It is a fact that the Church has stated though the Pope that the Third Secret has been fully revealed. I believe that the current pope confirmed this while he was the head of the Sacred Congregation on Doctrine of the Faith.

So those who deny this fact must then provide proof of such, and one such proof would be be to provide the secret.

To say that we are not dealing in facts when we believe what the Church has said is just insane.

Let me try this. I have read a book in which the author claims to have seen scrolls in a Tibetian Buddhist monastery that were written by Christ when he came to this monastery after the resurrection.

So when you tell me that these scrolls do not exist because Christ did not go there can I say that this is just your opinion?

If so then there is no discussing the matter of the Third secret either.

This is nothing but another one of the many conspiracy theory threads and really has nothing to do with true spirituality.

You are quite mistaken that the Pope put his stamp of approval on what was released. He didn’t even give his personal opinion that everything was released and nothing held back - much less anything authoritative or binding.

So, your definition of ‘true spirituality’ is burying one’s head in the sand? Insulting and dismissive and holds no water. (At least you did manage a response with some substance here - a first in the thread.)

Are you saying that those of us who find Socci’s position here quite reasonable have no true spirituality? We’re just so caught-up in nonsensical ‘conspiracy theories’ we don’t pray, pray the Mass, receive the sacraments with grace? Does that include Mother Angelica? How do you get off making such ridiculous personal judgments?

Now the standard you have provided above that in order to ‘prove’ anything is remiss here we must ‘provide the secret’ did cause me to laugh out loud. Easier said than done, don’t you think? You are really going to state that that would be the ONLY admissible evidence that the full Secret was not revealed?

While you’ve provided a bit of actual substance here, you didn’t even attempt to address any of the factual data against your position, just like everybody else who has merely thrown stones here.