The Traditional Catholic "Movement"

[MarkThompson]

I have read enough of your posts to understand you perfectly.

You haven’t understood the slightest fraction of what I’ve said. Please don’t think for a moment that you’ve understood me.

Your point of view is, people should give a hoot that you bolted the OF for the TLM as soon as you could. The reasons are important and instructive. Should anyone care about the reasons why other people who were raised, and even said Mass for many years, under the TLM bolted for the OF and would never go back? “Impossible!”, you stamp your feet, “There’s no such person! We all preferred the TLM, I can’t understand what happened! Someone just forced change on everyone! I’m angry!”

I don’t know which is more frightening: the possibility that you just don’t care to ask why the views and opinions of other people who lived through the same period – as laymen, priests, or bishops – differ from yours, the possibility that you think you already know, or the possibility that you don’t believe any such strange creatures exist.

 

[StTommyMore]

I will NEVER understand this kind of thinking. Catholics using the decline of those faiths that are no longer part of the Church Christ created, as an excuse for their own problems. You do know that Christ promised us His presence, His help until the end of the age, don’t you?

It matters not what other religions do or don’t do, we are the CATHOLIC CHURCH!

Luke 12:39-48:
Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

Oh. I forgot. Since we are Catholic we have arrived. We are the perfection of humanity, and Satan never does anything to try to cause problems for Catholics (like ramping up media hype for instance.) This is just more crowing about how Vatican 2 did some such thing (which it did not, I may add. You would know this if you would take time to CAREFULLY read the documents) Enough of your ranting. It is quite tiresome.

 

[Ockham]

You haven’t understood the slightest fraction of what I’ve said. Please don’t think for a moment that you’ve understood me.

Your point of view is, people should give a hoot that you bolted the OF for the TLM as soon as you could. The reasons are important and instructive. Should anyone care about the reasons why other people who were raised, and even said Mass for many years, under the TLM bolted for the OF and would never go back? “Impossible!”, you stamp your feet, “There’s no such person! We all preferred the TLM, I can’t understand what happened! Someone just forced change on everyone! I’m angry!”

I don’t know which is more frightening: the possibility that you just don’t care to ask why the views and opinions of other people who lived through the same period – as laymen, priests, or bishops – differ from yours, the possibility that you think you already know, or the possibility that you don’t believe any such strange creatures exist.

Although there are valid points in your post Mark, the anger clouds them. Cradle didn’t say everyone preferred the TLM, yet you claim people fled it in massive droves. Posts like this are like a paper cut: sharp but shallow.

 

[Ockham]

The data from other faiths helps filter out those factors with come from outside the Church and that which come from inside the Church. What we find is that the blame that Vatican II has for all the ills of the Church is nothing but a* post hoc ergo prompter* hoc fallacy. Yet even though the data points to more significant causes, this fallacy is the trumpet call of all those who dislike the Second Vatican Council. The truth of the matter seems less important than the rhetoric.

While I can’t speak for everyone under the brush you’re using here I can say that V2 isn’t the only reason for the decline in The Church but it is certainly a major factor. Which fallacy did you use to make this error?

 

[CradleCath]

You haven’t understood the slightest fraction of what I’ve said.

Here’s the bottom line, Mark:

These are quotes from your latest posts:

"But I also think it is very dangerous for people who value the TLM not to question or seek to understand why very many

 

[HCC]

You know, those are interesting questions. I’ve debated starting a thread on the topic, why were the vast majority of people who were raised and formed before Vatican II perfectly content, and even eager, for the new Mass and all its changes? Why do we hear so often of old priests, who grew up before the Council, who despise the TLM and say that it’ll be celebrated at their church over their dead bodies?

I haven’t started the thread because I assume many people would understand it as a backhanded way of insulting the TLM, which is not what I intend at all. But I also don’t think that the one-liner throwaway answers given to those questions (“Well, they are Modernists. Thank God they are dying off now.”) are very good. I do think people who only know the OF should wonder why some folks are abandoning it for the TLM as fast as they can. But I also think it is very dangerous for people who value the TLM not to question or seek to understand why very many people gladly left the TLM for folk Masses in massive droves. The (non-)answers people give to make themselves feel comfortable (“Bad catechesis,” “Modernism,” “The smoke of Satan,” etc.) only harm the people giving them, just as people who would answer your question by saying, “He’s living in the past” or “He’s probably an anti-Semite” are just confusing themselves and missing out on valuable insights.

So you’re absolutely right – people should wonder why. But that’s the same reason I see a huge missed opportunity (and generally an act of willful blindness) every time I read where someone says, “So I talked to an old priest and asked if he would say the TLM. He grimaced and told me, Never. Sad, isn’t it? Well, at least his kind won’t be around much longer.” I would think people would want to know why he felt the way he did. Were there mistakes made in the past that should be avoided in the future? How could you simply not care?

Growing up listening to my parents and relatives talk about growing up Catholic in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, you hear lots of stories about over-wrought nuns who were supposedly abusive.

My aunt (who ironically left the Church after Vatican II because she said the Church had changed too much) told a story about how she was going up to communion one morning and the side door of the church was open. There was a car accident outside and some men went running out. She turned her head for a moment during all the excitement and the jolt of hearing the crash. When she got back to the pew and knelt down, a sister grabbed her off the kneeler, dragged her down the aisle, threw her out into the vestibule and slapped her repeatedly.

True or not, there seems to be an over all agreement that the Church, at least felt, “oppressive.”

I think to some extent, people tied anything pre-Vatican II in with some of these memories. My mother rolls her eyes when she hears me mention litanies, processions, hymns like, “Mary, We Crown Thee With Blossoms Today…”

On a side note…
I have noticed a certain personality type among some traditionalists that can be, shall we say, rigid. I can understand where that mentality comes from, wanting to go overboard protecting oneself from the extreme moral dangers of the modern world. While I empathize, I find these people a little unbearable sometimes.

 

[pnewton]

Which fallacy did you use to make this error?

I have no idea to what you are referring to. I should have said “a trumpet call” instead of “the trumpet call” so not to imply univerality. Is that what you are suggesting? If so, I agree.

 

[HCC]

MarkThompson;7010555:

You haven’t understood the slightest fraction of what I’ve said.

Here’s the bottom line, Mark:

These are quotes from your latest posts:

& on & ON!!

I ask for one thing…links to prove that people “gladly” left the TLM. for folk Masses…that the “vast Majority” were eager for the New Mass…that old priests “despise” the TLM. In other words you need to prove the points made by your exaggerated adjectives & your statements in general.

It works like this. I gave definite numbers & provided links to prove them. From me:
"You do know that 50,000 men left the priesthood during the reign of Pope Paul IV

& to tell the truth I think we lost the brightest & the best. I know 2 personally who left. Although one has told me that he didn’t leave the priesthood, it left him. I will give you a link to the figure of 50,000 men".
latin-mass-society.org/priesthood.htm

I also have a personal knowledge of both the immediate results of Vatican II & the long term fruits of the council, as does Pope Benedict.
It might be good if you would accept the words of our Pope & BTW. It would also be a good idea to tell those “old priests” that “so often” talk about the fact that they “despise” the TLM. that they would do well to also accept the directives of their Pope. Never have I heard any priest say that he “despised” any type of Mass. So, your words are quite depressing. I’m really anxious to see a link that tells me where these priests live & why they think that any Mass is despicable.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0703892.htm
"the pope expressed sympathy with Catholics who are attached to the Tridentine rite and uncomfortable with the new Mass. In the post-Vatican II period, he said, excessive liturgical creativity often led to “deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear.”

"I am speaking from experience, since I, too, lived through that period with all its hopes and confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the church," he said."

Scratch my last post…YOU ARE RIGHT CradleCath. When I asked those same people who talked about abusive nuns, etc… what they thought when the new Mass was introduced, they all said, “Well, that was the way it was. They (pastors) just said, 'this is the way Mass will be from now on.” I heard little praise for the new Mass. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[CradleCath]

Oh. I forgot. Since we are Catholic we have arrived. We are the perfection of humanity, and Satan never does anything to try to cause problems for Catholics (like ramping up media hype for instance.) This is just more crowing about how Vatican 2 did some such thing (which it did not, I may add. You would know this if you would take time to CAREFULLY read the documents) Enough of your ranting. It is quite tiresome.

I don’t think you “forgot”, I think you read my post with an attitude of scorn. You’ll notice that I quoted St. Luke:

Luke 12:39-48:
Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

We have been given MORE than the Protestant faiths. We have our Sacraments, the keys of the kingdom & Christ’s promise not to forsake us. THEREFORE, more is expected of us. It may not dissapoint Him as much to see that the Southern Baptist’s membership is dwindling, as it does when he sees what’s happening within the Church He, Himself, created, the Church that is led by the Holy Spirit.

My high school teachers were from an order that originated in France & they were big on the old phrase once used by the monarchies of Europe…“Noblesse Obilge” it means that the
the moral obligation of those of high birth, powerful social position, superior intellects, etc., to act with MORE honor, MORE kindliness, MORE generosity, etc. is** greater **because they have received more than most.

We Catholics are Catholics because for some reason God decided that we should be born of Catholic parents, or for those who weren’t…
that He would somehow lead them to the Catholic Church. Our Catholic faith is a GIFT that we didn’t earn & requires our BEST!! I don’t think that His own Church has been giving Him it’s best, for many years.

You would know this if you would take time to CAREFULLY read the documents) Enough of your ranting. It is quite tiresome.

That is a rude statement.

BTW, I have read everyone of the documents from the council &
I’ve read the writings of Karl Rahner, Archbishop Bugnini, Cardinal Ottaviani, Hans Kung, Pope John Paul & Cardinal Ratzinger. I know the part that Cardinals Suenens & Bernardin played in creating this Church of the “New Order”. I would feel comfortable debating the Gallileo “fiasco” including the points that he stole from Copernicus & his very unpleasant personality. I could go & on & on, but I won’t.

 

[StTommyMore]

I don’t think you “forgot”, I think you read my post with an attitude of scorn. You’ll notice that I quoted St. Luke:

Luke 12:39-48:
Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

We have been given MORE than the Protestant faiths. We have our Sacraments, the keys of the kingdom & Christ’s promise not to forsake us. THEREFORE, more is expected of us. It may not dissapoint Him as much to see that the Southern Baptist’s membership is dwindling, as it does when he sees what’s happening within the Church He, Himself, created, the Church that is led by the Holy Spirit.

My high school teachers were from an order that originated in France & they were big on the old phrase once used by the monarchies of Europe…“Noblesse Obilge” it means that the
the moral obligation of those of high birth, powerful social position, superior intellects, etc., to act with MORE honor, MORE kindliness, MORE generosity, etc. is** greater **because they have received more than most.

We Catholics are Catholics because for some reason God decided that we should be born of Catholic parents, or for those who weren’t…
that He would somehow lead them to the Catholic Church. Our Catholic faith is a GIFT that we didn’t earn & requires our BEST!! I don’t think that His own Church has been giving Him it’s best, for many years.

That is a rude statement.

BTW, I have read everyone of the documents from the council &
I’ve read the writings of Karl Rahner, Archbishop Bugnini, Cardinal Ottaviani, Hans Kung, Pope John Paul & Cardinal Ratzinger. I know the part that Cardinals Suenens & Bernardin played in creating this Church of the “New Order”. I would feel comfortable debating the Gallileo “fiasco” including the points that he stole from Copernicus & his very unpleasant personality. I could go & on & on, but I won’t.

It is not rude to say you are ranting. You have done little else. The things you have attributed to Vatican 2 appear nowhere in the documents.

 

[magdalina]

Btw, i have read everyone of the documents from the council & i’ve read the writings of karl rahner, archbishop bugnini, cardinal ottaviani, hans kung, pope john paul & cardinal ratzinger. I know the part that cardinals suenens & bernardin played in creating this church of the “new order”. I would feel comfortable debating the gallileo “fiasco” including the points that he stole from copernicus & his very unpleasant personality. I could go & on & on, but i won’t.

What is up with….
skimpy shorts (or other inapprpriate attire, like tank-tops, miniskirts, torn jeans, etc) at mass?
Rock bands playing “hymns”?
Chit-chat before and after mass?
No genuflecting?
Short confession lines and long communion lines?

I won’t accept blanket statements blaming vatican 2 or the novus ordo. I want specifics. What has happened to the faith of the church?

Do not misunderstand. I am a grad student, and when I go to daily Mass in the mornings, I am wearing my clothes for School.

But this morning was another student wearing skimpy shorts. On a regualr basis at my home parish, I see people with miniskirts, sports jerseys, etc.

If the Bishop is coming…it is dressed up, but if it is “just one of the friars” it is ridiculously casual. Like it is somehow “more Jesus” if the Bishop is the celebrant. I find it annoying.

Franciscan University of Steubenville
1235 University Boulevard
Steubenville, Ohio 43952

 

[CradleCath]

Franciscan University of Steubenville
1235 University Boulevard
Steubenville, Ohio 43952

Hmmm…interesting.

 

[magdalina]

Hmmm…interesting.

He asked for specifics.

 

[StTommyMore]

Hmmm…interesting.

What are you inferring here? If you have never set foot on campus, then you have nothing to say, good or ill.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

CA’s rules do not allow the naming of parishes and other Catholic institutions by name, much less posting their address unless there is a point to it.

Thank You

Thomas Casey
Moderator

 

[magdalina]

CA’s rules do not allow the naming of parishes and other Catholic institutions by name, much less posting their address unless there is a point to it.

Thank You

Thomas Casey
Moderator

In the future, I will refrain from posting addresses of previously identified Catholic institutions when a simple link will get the job done.

Franciscan University of Steubenville. Before you pass judgment on the entire school, a few things to remember:

We have confession 4 days a week, usually with about an hour wait and a minimum of 5 priests hearing confessions.

We have 3 Masses daily, 2 on Saturday and 4 on Sunday.

An EF Missa Cantata is celebrated once a month. (I wish it was more, but I take what I can get)

We have young men and young ladies discerning religious life ( I perosnally know 6 young women in the discernment process). Last year there were in the neighborhood of 60 men in the pre-thologiate program.

Most of the students here are exemplary Catholics, but with 1700+ students, you will always find some who do not take their faith seriously.

Our Theology faculty is nothing short of brilliant. (Scott Hahn, John Bergsma, Fr. Dan Patee, Regis Martin, Alan Schreck. Mark Miravalle, and others)

Franciscan is not merely a Catholic institution. It is a business that advertises its services, recruits students, and publicly claims to deliver an education “… grounded in a passionately Catholic faith tradition…”, before releasing graduates to “…evangelize and transform the [presumably Catholic] culture…”.

Your knowledge — illuminated by faith — comes alive and leads you confidently into the world when you study at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Here, your exceptional education is grounded in a passionately Catholic faith tradition that takes you beyond yourself and into the community where you can evangelize and transform the culture.
franciscan.edu/about/main.aspx

I take them at their word. The Catholic culture has indeed been transformed in the 50 years that Franciscan has been sending its graduates out across the landscape.

The poster to whom I was responding had reported his personal observations of how some of its students present and conduct themselves in Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Growing up listening to my parents and relatives talk about growing up Catholic in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, you hear lots of stories about over-wrought nuns who were supposedly abusive.

Vatican II wasn’t called to put a stop on nun abuses, although it sure seemed that way to a lot of people.

But that aside, there is very little dispute that the decline of Catholicism has been severe since during or after Vatican II, at least in percentages. Yet that isn’t true in Africa and Asia, where there the Church appears to be flourishing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Vatican II wasn’t called to put a stop on nun abuses, although it sure seemed that way to a lot of people.

But that aside, there is very little dispute that the decline of Catholicism has been severe since during or after Vatican II, at least in percentages. Yet that isn’t true in Africa and Asia, where there the Church appears to be flourishing.

I believe that in North America the numbers are being supported by immigration. More people in the pews nowadays are recent immigrants. But most immigrants tend to live in high density areas than in the suburbs. So the churches in the suburbs have a thinning attendance while those in highly urbanized areas are brim full. Recent reports point that more parishes have opened than have been closed. The demographics are just shifting.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Growing up listening to my parents and relatives talk about growing up Catholic in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s, you hear lots of stories about over-wrought nuns who were supposedly abusive.

My aunt (who ironically left the Church after Vatican II because she said the Church had changed too much) told a story about how she was going up to communion one morning and the side door of the church was open. There was a car accident outside and some men went running out. She turned her head for a moment during all the excitement and the jolt of hearing the crash. When she got back to the pew and knelt down, a sister grabbed her off the kneeler, dragged her down the aisle, threw her out into the vestibule and slapped her repeatedly.

True or not, there seems to be an over all agreement that the Church, at least felt, “oppressive.”

I think to some extent, people tied anything pre-Vatican II in with some of these memories. My mother rolls her eyes when she hears me mention litanies, processions, hymns like, “Mary, We Crown Thee With Blossoms Today…”

On a side note…
I have noticed a certain personality type among some traditionalists that can be, shall we say, rigid. I can understand where that mentality comes from, wanting to go overboard protecting oneself from the extreme moral dangers of the modern world. While I empathize, I find these people a little unbearable sometimes.

So, i take that you like our times better. people without faith, waterdown of the faith. confusion everywhere, ecumenism turning the Catholic faifh just like protestants faiths, the destruction of the Church, modern buildings, dissobedience everywhere, the embarassment to the Church, convents being closed, Catholic universities teaching contrary to Catholic teachings, priests teachings heresies, bad catechism, and so forth.
liberation theology. is this good? lack of leadership. there is a reason why God design things a certain way for us. He knows us better than we do, but we now think that we know ourselves better than God does. God will let us do as we will, but we will face the consequences. we are already facing the consequences.

**
“True Catholics are those who follow the tradition,” said one day St. Pius X**

 

[ProVobis]

I believe that in North America the numbers are being supported by immigration. More people in the pews nowadays are recent immigrants. But most immigrants tend to live in high density areas than in the suburbs. So the churches in the suburbs have a thinning attendance while those in highly urbanized areas are brim full. Recent reports point that more parishes have opened than have been closed. The demographics are just shifting.

Granted the immigrants live in the higher density areas, especially those of Spanish and Polish heritage. Do you have any references for your other claims, so I could use them for my future claims?