The Traditional Latin Mass is for old people

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JKirkLVNV said:
I converted from the Episcopal Church as well. If there were an Anglican Use parish in my diocese, that’s where I would be (for one thing, Anglican Use is ample demonstration that the laity can recieve the Most Precious Blood when it is proffered to them while they are kneeling). That’s why I say, why not simply have the TLM, in the vernacular, with an audible cannon, and the congregation making the responses? It’s already been translated (I’ve a copy by my bed), so we could entirely avoid the ICEL and the Bishops’ footdragging, etc. I bet the Holy Father could have the whole thing promulgated within a month.
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Without getting jumped on for expressing opinion, so far, I agree with JKirk. I am a cradle Catholic, but this makes sense to me.

Further, if things went back to TLM, then I might be strongly tempted to register at an Anglican Use parish, which abound here.
 
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marcus29:
This sounds like Cranmer’s rantings against the Canon

Cranmer ordered his entire service to be said “playnly and distinctly”
Rubric in the 1549 Communion Service

"If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church prescribing that a part of the Canon and the words of consecration be recited in a low tone of voice, should be condemned… **let him be anathema." **
Council of Trent XXII session

Condemn -To pronounce to be wrong; to disapprove of; to censure.
[1913 Webster]

You should remember that a silent Eucharistic Prayer is not something exclusive to the TLM. In the Eastern liturgies, not only is the Eucharistic Prayer said inaudibly (except for the words of institution) — so is the Preface.

The silent Canon, “betokens the Consecration and Sacrificial Act to be an exclusively priestly function.**
*The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass *(St. Louis, Mo., 1908), p. 582.”

“The priest enters the sanctuary of the canon alone. Up till now the people have thronged round him, their songs at times accompanying him in the fore-Mass. But the songs have become less frequent, and after the steep ascent of the Great Prayer they have come to an end in the Triple *Sanctus. A *sacred stillness reigns; silence is a worthy preparation for God’s approach. Like the High-priest of the Old Testament, who once a year was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies with the blood of a sacrificial animal (Hebr. 9:7), the priest now separates from the people and makes his way before the all-holy God in order to offer up the sacrifice to Him”
*The Mass of the Roman Rite *Jungmann (London, 1959), pp. 384-5.

My favorite quote from Dr. Gihr

“In every Host there are miracles, as numerous as stars in the firmament,— yet not the slightest trace of the wonders appears externally. With all this the ecclesiastical rite harmonizes perfectly. The holy silence is quite suited to indicate and to recall the concealment and depth, the incomprehensibleness and ineffableness of the wonderful mysteries that are enacted on the altar. Silent prayer is related to religious silence, and, therefore, expresses the humility, reverence, admiration, and awe wherewith the Church administers and adores the Mystery of the 'Altar.** “The Lord is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before Him” (Hab. 2:20)**. The sight of the priest at the altar, communing amid profound stillness with God alone, is, therefore, also an excellent means afforded to arouse and promote in those who are present the proper dispositions, with which they should admire, adore, and offer along with the priest So grand and sublime a Sacrifice. Quam terribilis est haec hora!—thus does the deacon cry out to the people in the Syrian liturgy—“How terrible is this hour!” While the tremendous Sacrifice is being accomplished on the altar, all present should be immersed in silent contemplation and in devout meditation of the divine Mysteries.”

*The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass *(St. Louis, Mo., 1908), pp. 583-4.
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I very much doubt that I’m anathematized, because the Church may govern how a sacrament is celebrated and may order it done a certain way (as long as the essential form, matter and intent are not changed). According to GIRM, it’s to be audible. So the Church must have allowed that particular anathema to lapse or maybe they lifted it outright, like Paul VI did for the Ecumenical Patriarch? Besides I didn’t say it shouldn’t be said in a low tone of voice, I said it shouldn’t be said silently.

If Cranmer did order his service to be audible, the fact that it was him that ordered it doesn’t detract from it’s desireability or lack thereof, from it’s rightness or lack thereof. Cranmer’s position is besides the point and to make audibleness out to be wrong because of Cranmer’s support of it is to commit an error of genesis, ie, an idea is wrong by virtue of the person who came up with it (TNT, I owe you an apology in that other thread, as I committed the same error).

Dr. Gihr writes quite lovely prose. It isn’t the discipline of the Church, however, so it’s are merely opinion and one is free to disagree with it. I cannot argue with it, as I cannot argue experientially with what others find deeply moving, but I do not. I want the Mass to remain in the vernacular, celebrated according to the rubrics set forth in GIRM.

Another thing I’ve learned about the TLM: the Scripture readings are done both in Latin and in the local language, yes?
 
Please note, I’m not arguing against silence. I’m arguing against the silent canon, ie., the priest speaking inaudibly from after the Sanctus to the minor elevation before the Amen.
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B16 in his book *the spirit of the liturgy *thinks differently. he hopes that the silent canon be brought back with only the begining of each prayer said out loud. one reason for this is because in ancient times, the altar was surrounded by a curtain and the eucharisit prayer was always veiled from the people. a modern example of this curtain is the iconostasis in byzantine liturgies.

the emphasis wasn’t on the priest but on a common cosmic orientation of priest and laity alike. while i personally like an audible cannon, i also see the benefits of a silent one and i would take B16’s opinions seriously.
 
oat soda:
B16 in his book *the spirit of the liturgy *thinks differently. he hopes that the silent canon be brought back with only the begining of each prayer said out loud. one reason for this is because in ancient times, the altar was surrounded by a curtain and the eucharisit prayer was always veiled from the people. a modern example of this curtain is the iconostasis in byzantine liturgies.

the emphasis wasn’t on the priest but on a common cosmic orientation of priest and laity alike. while i personally like an audible cannon, i also see the benefits of a silent one and i would take B16’s opinions seriously.
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I do take the pope seriously. I thought about this discussion when I went to Mass today (at my poor, ignorant, barely-able-to-confect-the-sacrifice-with-a-liturgy-cobbled-together-by-protestants-and-free-masons parish). I listended carefully to the cannon. I would hate, hate, hate not being able to hear those glorious words “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood.” I hope the Holy Father doesn’t impose the silent canon again.
 
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delorean_boy:
I agree,but, How would you ad lib at the TLM now?
Modern vernacular, you can pretty much say what you want.
such as…being PC and inclusive language.
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Not if priests would hew to the sacrmentary.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I do take the pope seriously. I thought about this discussion when I went to Mass today (at my poor, ignorant, barely-able-to-confect-the-sacrifice-with-a-liturgy-cobbled-together-by-protestants-and-free-masons parish). I listended carefully to the cannon. I would hate, hate, hate not being able to hear those glorious words “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood.” I hope the Holy Father doesn’t impose the silent canon again.
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This is a non faithful Novus Ordo, and the participants are old nuns:http://www.csasisters.org/site_uploads/gallery/photo693_1.jpg
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I converted from the Episcopal Church as well. If there were an Anglican Use parish in my diocese, that’s where I would be (for one thing, Anglican Use is ample demonstration that the laity can recieve the Most Precious Blood when it is proffered to them while they are kneeling). That’s why I say, why not simply have the TLM, in the vernacular, with an audible cannon, and the congregation making the responses? It’s already been translated (I’ve a copy by my bed), so we could entirely avoid the ICEL and the Bishops’ footdragging, etc. I bet the Holy Father could have the whole thing promulgated within a month.
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Bravo!! Well said!! And it’s good to know there’s another “recovering Anglican” on this thread…
 
*** Anglican Use is ample demonstration that the laity can recieve the Most Precious Blood when it is proffered to them while they are kneeling). ***
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I’ve never understood why the Catholic Church instituted the line system for distribution of communion of both kinds, instead of just borrowing the method used by our Episcopalian friends (and apparently Anglican use folks as well) which looks pretty orderly.
 
Looking at the picture I knowtice that it was most likely taken during Advent (which explains the Blue - another abuse perhaps?).
However, there doesn’t seem to be any lit candles on the alter, no priest and no alter servers (although there could be a Reader in the corner) so for me there is the question whether or not this picture taken during a Mass? And most important as already stated, “What’s your point?”
 
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TOME:
Looking at the picture I knowtice that it was most likely taken during Advent (which explains the Blue - another abuse perhaps?).
However, there doesn’t seem to be any lit candles on the alter, no priest and no alter servers (although there could be a Reader in the corner) so for me there is the question whether or not this picture taken during a Mass? And most important as already stated, “What’s your point?”
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I thought sister dancing the hussle was funny.
 
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misericordie:
This is a non faithful Novus Ordo, and the participants are old nuns:
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You have no idea what this picture is. But you use it to once again further your general dislike of nuns, and of the “old”.

My goodness, is there any class of people that you don’t have a problem with?
 
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rcn:
My goodness, is there any class of people that you don’t have a problem with?
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Miseri loves company! 😛

Sorry, not taking a shot a Misericordie (or anyone else). The bad joke was just too “easy” and I couldn’t restrain myself.
 
I love the Traditional Latin Liturgy. It is more reverent, peaceful, quiet and I am able to better comprehend what is really going on ( that is, the true Sacrifice of the Mass )

(and I find myself, in fact, very moved by the Sacrifice, often to tears).

Where as I find it much more difficult to focus on the Sacrifice of the Mass during the New Liturgy.

btw, I am 18 years old.
 
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PaxVobis1331:
I love the Traditional Latin Liturgy. It is more reverent, peaceful, quiet and I am able to better comprehend what is really going on ( that is, the true Sacrifice of the Mass )

(and I find myself, in fact, very moved by the Sacrifice, often to tears).

Where as I find it much more difficult to focus on the Sacrifice of the Mass during the New Liturgy.

btw, I am 18 years old.
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In your OPINION it is more reverent. That is an entirely subjective opinion. It’s all right to have as an opinion, but other people prefer the “New” liturgy. I think it’s important how we use words.
 
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TradCat82:
Bravo!! Well said!! And it’s good to know there’s another “recovering Anglican” on this thread…
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Ah, worse than you think. Raised Baptist, became Anglican, then swam the Tiber!
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Further, to say that this Mass is abuse-proof is absurd. Here’s a little observation made by Martin Luther on his pilgrimage to Rome. It’s from a book by Richard Marius (he wrote an excellent work on Saint Thomas More and in this book, Martin Luther: The Christian Between God and Death, Luther doesn’t come off at all well, while Marius comments on the continued vigor of Catholicism):
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Luther Died in Feb. 1546, The council of Trent Went from 1545-1563, when Luther wrote this quote, the “TLM” had not been made the law of the Church…and the Council of Trent was called in part to address these abuses.

Cheers!
 
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