Thank you, this is exactly what I meant when I started this thread. I just got tired of the constant bashing. I’m not talking about how the Church handles the matter or what the Church teaches about it, but this; how the laity, and sometimes members of the clergy, handles it.I am a homosexual Catholic who is attempting to live a celibate life. I have definitely experienced GREAT hostility. This hostility is more of a passive hostility. People look down on me when they find out about my SSA (same sex attractions) and try to keep me at arms length. CCC 2358 says that “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided,” but the average Catholic does NOT even come close to following that. Take my word for it, I am rarely met with open arms by a Catholic who knows about my SSA, which is why I try to keep it a secret (this forum is OK because I’m anonymous).
The media tries to slam the Church by saying that the institution of the Catholic Church is against homosexual/gay people, which is not true. The average Catholic however, does not want to associate with, and looks down upon, individuals with SSA (even if they are chaste).
Can you name a significant Catholic outreach program in the US for homosexual Catholics? There is Courage, which has only 90 tiny chapters in the entire country, but that’s it (at least for me).
Well, I doubt that contagion is the concern, but I think you’re right about the comfort zone. However, perhaps that their/our comfort zones are threatened is not entirely a bad thing. If we were to say or feel, “OK, fine, I’m completely comfortable with your sin” would swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, methinks.Gay people get treated like divorced people or people that threaten the comfort zone of the average parishoner. It’s like they think that homosexuality or divorce are contagious.
Hey Bob,I am a homosexual Catholic who is attempting to live a celibate life. I have definitely experienced GREAT hostility. This hostility is more of a passive hostility.
If a homosexual person is openly flaunting their homosexuality and everyone knows that they are an open homosexual then in my opinion, it is right to deny them the Eucharist.**As a faithful Orthodox Christian… I agree with every single thing you have said here.
I am most disturbed by the Roman Catholic practice of denial of the Eucharist - Holy Communion to homosexual people.
The sin is to be sincerely repented of, but the individual is not to be shunned or isolated as Roman Catholics do - by denial of the healing, restorative and redemptive sacrament of the Eucharist.
Christ did not do this - he first healed then asked people to go and sin no more.
This applies to us all… not just to heterosexuals.**
Agreed, someone in mortal sin should be denied the Eucharist. Someone struggling to be chaste might be a different case, but open homosexuals with no intention of trying to resist their temptations, no.If a homosexual person is openly flaunting their homosexuality and everyone knows that they are an open homosexual then in my opinion, it is right to deny them the Eucharist.
Thank you for admitting that.In my work setting, I’m sure I have a number clients that are either divorced/remarried Catholics lacking an annulment or gay couples. In that setting, although I’m sometimes aware of their situation, it’s not uncomfortable for me. Chatting with them after mass, though, I’ll admit a certain level of discomfort. Sure, everyone sins, but not everyone’s sins are as public as others. That’s perhaps where the difference lies?
Let God sort it out? Eventually, yes. In the meantime, Catholics need to understand the times we are living in. In no way should we harm others and we cannot know what is in their hearts, yet Jesus said, By their fruits you shall know them.Thank you for admitting that.
I am divorced, annuled, not remarried, and in the eyes of the Church completely entitled to partake of the Eucharist.
A homosexual may have repented in the Sacrament of Confession, and be living a chaste life. And maybe not. Yet who are we to judge the heart? Let God sort it out.
I have pretty much assumed this to be the case (that perception of discrimination is greater than reality and it can be a self fulfilling prophesy). I have assumed this in part because it seems that that would be likely to happen, and because I have seen countless times in which some of my peers who are African-American clearly perceive more discrimination than there really is.I have taught on racial profiling in law enforcement. I found through direct research and secondary reading that the perception of discrimination is greater than objective measures (although it is still very real). It can also be a self fulfilling prophecy as defensive behaviors build on each other. I really believe that your experience and interpretation are valid, but I hope for all of our sakes that it is not as potent or as frequent as you may think.
Its great to know that there are people out there who understand. However, I would like to have people in my life (outside of a tiny Catholic support group I’m in) who could be comfortable enough around me and trust me enough to treat me like a good, even close, friend despite knowing that I have SSA.In other words, somebody gets it and admires your struggle whether you succeed everyday or not.
This, plus a general view of someone with SSA as a sinner, the feeling that many people have that SSA is contagious (which it is not), and the feeling that being close to someone with SSA may tempt them to sin (which is often very far from the truth) tend to contribute to negative treatment of those with SSA. I could understand that some may be uncomfortable around those with SSA, but people with SSA should not be avoided.Chatting with them after mass, though, I’ll admit a certain level of discomfort.
I think, Bob, that the uncomfortableness at least on my part is how to handle the elephant in the room; not for a person simply with SSA; SSA in itself is not sinful, but for those who are openly in a homosexual relationship or a heterosexual fornicating relationship. I know a person or two in our parish with a SSA, and couldn’t give a rat’s you-know-what.This, plus a general view of someone with SSA as a sinner, the feeling that many people have that SSA is contagious (which it is not), and the feeling that being close to someone with SSA may tempt them to sin (which is often very far from the truth) tend to contribute to negative treatment of those with SSA. I could understand that some may be uncomfortable around those with SSA, but people with SSA should not be avoided.
If you know someone close to you who has SSA, don’t be afraid to give them a hug and let them know that God loves them.
Bob, this is part of the trial the Church acknowledges. Like it or not, there is a natural discomfort that is felt, by heterosexual males anyway, toward the whole idea of SSA. It’s instinctual but also consistent with Church teaching that the inclination is disordered. So you keep it a secret to avoid being kept at arm’s length. Is this unhealthy? IMO, no. We all struggle with sin. But confession is private. Why? No one likes being kept at arm’s length.I am a homosexual Catholic who is attempting to live a celibate life. I have definitely experienced GREAT hostility. This hostility is more of a passive hostility. People look down on me when they find out about my SSA (same sex attractions) and try to keep me at arms length. CCC 2358 says that “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided,” but the average Catholic does NOT even come close to following that. Take my word for it, I am rarely met with open arms by a Catholic who knows about my SSA, which is why I try to keep it a secret (this forum is OK because I’m anonymous).
IMHO I would have to fully disagree with that, I have never had an issue being around Gay men, in public showers, pool, or even on a sofa over night.Bob, this is part of the trial the Church acknowledges. Like it or not, there is a natural discomfort that is felt, by heterosexual males anyway, toward the whole idea of SSA. It’s instinctual but also consistent with Church teaching that the inclination is disordered. So you keep it a secret to avoid being kept at arm’s length. Is this unhealthy? IMO, no. We all struggle with sin. But confession is private. Why? No one likes being kept at arm’s length.
IMHO, you misinterpret what is meant by the Church when she says that the inclination is intrinsically disordered. I think that this quote of Cardinal Ratzinger will help:Bob, this is part of the trial the Church acknowledges. Like it or not, there is a natural discomfort that is felt, by heterosexual males anyway, toward the whole idea of SSA. It’s instinctual but also consistent with Church teaching that the inclination is disordered. So you keep it a secret to avoid being kept at arm’s length. Is this unhealthy? IMO, no. We all struggle with sin. But confession is private. Why? No one likes being kept at arm’s length.
I wish more people had this level of comfort around those with SSA.I have never had an issue being around Gay men, in public showers, pool, or even on a sofa over night.
Well you don’t speak for all heterosexual men, either do I. But I was responding to Bob’s statement that he does experience that when he states that he is “rarely met with open arms by a Catholic who knows about my SSA”.IMHO I would have to fully disagree with that, I have never had an issue being around Gay men, in public showers, pool, or even on a sofa over night.
I guess I’m not sure why you think I misinterpreted this teaching.IMHO, you misinterpret what is meant by the Church when she says that the inclination is intrinsically disordered. I think that this quote of Cardinal Ratzinger will help:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”
brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/josephratz184315.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
According to Ratzinger, this inclination is disordered in the sense that it is a tendency/temptation to do what is intrinsically wrong.
I guess I don’t know how else to say this. But if the inclination is disordered, and it is, those who don’t have it likely perceive the disorderedness of it more acutely than those who do. I may see a beautiful woman who isn’t my wife and be tempted. But the consequences of possible damnation, destruction of my marriage, damage to my children, the potential abortion of a child that might be conceived, possible disease, should cause me to flee this beautiful woman. (Not that she wouldn’t flee me first.) But there is an ugly side to sin.I guess I’m not sure why you think I misinterpreted this teaching.
If you see eroticized SSA as disordered in the exact same way as being erotically attracted to someone other than your wife is disordered than I guess we are in more agreement than I initially thought.I may see a beautiful woman who isn’t my wife and be tempted.
Scott Hahn, who teaches at my college, has very good insight in this regard. This insight is not exclusively for SSA, but for many other things as well. He says we tend to judge others more for sins that we are not tempted to commit.those who don’t have it likely perceive the disorderedness of it more acutely than those who do.
Both of these are examples of disordered attraction to sin. But I don’t see the two acts as being disordered in the exact same way. They’re destructive in different ways. An adulterous act may not pose the same risk to health as a homosexual act. But depending on the circumstances, it could harm more people if it leads to the break-up of a family. Both sins merit eternal punishment. But the severity of that punishment is not necessarily the same either.If you see eroticized SSA as disordered in the exact same way as being erotically attracted to someone other than your wife is disordered than I guess we are in more agreement than I initially thought.
I have no trouble believing this is often the case.Scott Hahn, who teaches at my college, has very good insight in this regard. This insight is not exclusively for SSA, but for many other things as well. He says we tend to judge others more for sins that we are not tempted to commit.
If a person at an orthodox Catholic college committed sodomy once, the word about that somehow spread, but he later repented, he would be treated much worse than someone who fornicates and does not repent. Why? In part because the overwhelming majority of his peers are tempted to fornicate, and thus can understand someone who does so, but not to commit sodomy. Both are mortal sins. However, with homosexuality many tend to look at the sliver in the other person’s eye (while ignoring the beam in their own eye).