The ' tree of life '?

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if Adam didn’t eat of it would he have died?

if he and Eve had to eat from it for eternal life, what about the animals?

did they have to eat from it, or did they die?

confusing me.
 
if Adam didn’t eat of it would he have died?

if he and Eve had to eat from it for eternal life, what about the animals?

did they have to eat from it, or did they die?

confusing me.
Disobediance brought death to the world. There was more than one: Adam, Eve, and the Serpent each had a part, and each had different consequences, but brought death.

It seems that eating from the tree of life would have brought immortality, but they did not do that. See Genesis 3:21-24:
21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now therefore lest perhaps he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam: and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 
thanks Vico for the reply.

so before A and E sinned, if they didn’t eat from the tree of life they’d have died?

were the animals immortal without having to eat of a tree?
 
As Vico mentioned, disobedience brought death into the world. So I don’t think death would have occurred prior to the Fall.
God created perfect beings - who only became imperfect and mortal through their own corruption.

Just my two cents’ worth…an understanding could be this: because God forbade Adam and Eve (and thus humanity) from entering Eden and from eating from the tree of life, they (and we) become mortal due to our inability to be sustained by the fruit.
The only way we can escape mortality is through Christ. He becomes the new tree of life, as it is through him that we foster a hope of eternal life and resurrection.
 
As Vico mentioned, disobedience brought death into the world. So I don’t think death would have occurred prior to the Fall.
God created perfect beings - who only became imperfect and mortal through their own corruption.

Just my two cents’ worth…an understanding could be this: because God forbade Adam and Eve (and thus humanity) from entering Eden and from eating from the tree of life, they (and we) become mortal due to our inability to be sustained by the fruit.
The only way we can escape mortality is through Christ. He becomes the new tree of life, as it is through him that we foster a hope of eternal life and resurrection.
yes, but before they sinned, if they didn’t eat of it they would die, no?
otherwise the tree makes no sense, see.

and the animals?
 
As Vico mentioned, disobedience brought death into the world. So I don’t think death would have occurred prior to the Fall.
God created perfect beings - who only became imperfect and mortal through their own corruption.

Just my two cents’ worth…an understanding could be this: because God forbade Adam and Eve (and thus humanity) from entering Eden and from eating from the tree of life, they (and we) become mortal due to our inability to be sustained by the fruit.
The only way we can escape mortality is through Christ. He becomes the new tree of life, as it is through him that we foster a hope of eternal life and resurrection.
Just a Note: It isn’t likely that God prevented them from entering the physical place called Eden. The Cherubim are the equivalent of “horses” for the Chariot of God – the same as which Elijah was taken up in; the same as is found in Ezekiel; and also which is somehow related to the Ark of The covenant upon which two cherubim are said to have sat covering the mercy seat; (Why these aren’t seraphim, I am uncertain…)

The remark about the tree of life, is that the Cherubim were moved off to the East of Eden; And a flaming sword given there to prevent Adam from finding the tree of life.

The issue here is that the cherubim (cf: Isaiah and the impure lips) surround and carry with them an altar which has fire upon it; The cherubim, are in effect, the walls which surround the altar, and they support the throne of God and the Seraphim above them.
This altar, throne, and cherubim are a mobile thing; not a stationary one.

There is no walled garden in the place known as Eden, nor evidence that I know of that there ever has been a PHYSICALLY walled place; In the Greek the word “Paradise” is used which comes from the Persian, and indicates at very least a garden of a rich man which is walled in, or protected by a barrier.

I’m more of the opinion from studying the issue, that the chariot of God was parked at the place called Eden at the time of the fall – and served as the walls which temporarily made the place a paradise. In this kind of interpretation – Adam was driven out, not so much from a physical garden – but from between the Cherubim where the altar is;
It is the altar, as Jesus indicates, which makes all things holy; and it is from an altar which eternal life is sent upon all man.

The cross, a tree, is also called an altar. Something to ponder…
 
I have a Jewish liturgical book called “etz hayim” the Tree of Life, which has a translation commentary and a midrashic (homiletic) commentary.

Yeah, I researched this topic briefly just two days ago. The CCC says that the sin brought death.

But, the Jews disagree. They tend to be very logical. They note that the Tree of Life would have brought immortality. And, that proves by inference that death was a part of creation and that on the last day of creation God saw that it – death – was good.

These positions can be harmonized this way: Death was already ordained for A & E as part of their life. Eating the fruit of the Tree of Life would have given them immortality.

Eating the forbidden fruit brought death – but that was just the assurance that death would occur, because the path to the Tree of Life was blocked.

I tend to think that the Jewish expression is correct. A peripheral Jewish position would be that death was created during the original seven days of creation. To say that it came later would mean that God had not yet finished creation yet, until somewhat later when death was created.

Likewise, they also hold that the Torah itself was created by God before the creation story in Genesis, created at least 2000 years before then (based on some verse that I don’t recall).

The Jews have an intellectual guiding principle that anything that God needed to create, he created during the first seven days.

This is supported by yet another point: When God gives the command to Adam to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, doesn’t he specifically say to Adam that if he eats of the fruit he will surely die? See, the sin of eating brought the CERTAINTY of death.

Death is such an abstract thing, our modern mind pulls back from the idea that death was created, in the first place. But, this requires careful analysis of thepoint of view in Genesis.

We know that darkness isn’t a thing, it’t the absence of light. Nevertheless, darkness is depicted as a created thing in Genesis. Likewise “light” was created on the first day, a day or two before the sun and the moon were explicitly created.

So we have to deal with genesis on its own terms and in its own language.
 
so if they didn’t eat of the tree before they sinned they’d have died?
 
if Adam didn’t eat of it would he have died?

if he and Eve had to eat from it for eternal life, what about the animals?

did they have to eat from it, or did they die?

confusing me.
Adam would not have died in the sense of a corruption of the body. Nor would Eve.
Trees and plants were, as we are told earlier, placed with their seeds in them – and were fertile to multiply, as were A & E and all the animals.

Jesus says, “Unless a grain fall into the ground and die it remains but a single grain; but if it die, it will produce…”

This reflects the understanding of what it means to die; Death is a change, whereupon the original control of a body is lost in order that a new one may come. A germinating seed, would not in our modern minds “die”; but that is precisely the word and understanding the ancients had of that process. They understood germination to be a kind of death.

In this sense, Adam in bearing children, would die. Adam DID die (the deep sleep) in order that his rib (which is what really died), could be formed into his wife. Such death, by analogy, was already prescribed in order that Adam be fertile and multiply.
This is not a death, though, in the sense of something going to the Grave and remaining there to rot. This is a transformation from life to another life.

Fruit were also to be eaten; As you know, fruits are living things. In order to be eaten, (then), they too – must have died.

The life-span of Adam would not have ended should he have not eaten the poisoned fruit.

His spirit was capable of holding his body in perfect life forever – as will ours, once we rise again. As to the animals, I don’t know. If Adam intended to eat any of them, or sacrifice any of them – then clearly they would die. But I am not certain that this was to be the case; Adam was intended to be the zoo keeper; and it may have been his responsibility to prevent animals from breeding mindlessly – organizing them and tending them. However, I doubt that one who was to organize the world would be denied the right to dispatch (kill off) animals or plants which had grown too much.

Consider: As a gardener, there would be no point to tending a garden which did not over-grow, or change in the slightest – he would have absolutely nothing to do. But that was, in fact, his job before the sin.

The important things to grasp about the Garden are that God was a friend of Adam; Adam had the help of God (and most angels, but not the devil) in maintaining his life forever, and to solve the riddles and problems set before him. These great helps are what he lost by sin; and because he lost these things, he no longer had the help of the only one who can see into the future; it became impossible that Adam should be able to always do the “right” thing; for his ignorance lost it’s remedy.

I hope this helps some.
–Andrew.
 
sorry, too complex for me.

either the tree of life needed to be eaten from or not. it’s pretty easy.

either they’d have died without it or not.

overcomplicating makes me think it doesn’t make sense.

death was there or it wasn’t. the world was good or it wasn’t.

i don’t understand please…

God barred them from eating it after they sinned so they would die.
so that means if they didn’t eat BEFORE they sinned they would have died too.

so death was there,in Eden, NO?
 
sorry, too complex for me.

either the tree of life needed to be eaten from or not. it’s pretty easy.
The answer is no.
either they’d have died without it or not.
The answer is not.
overcomplicating makes me think it doesn’t make sense.
death was there or it wasn’t. the world was good or it wasn’t.
Death was there, but corruption and rotting was not there for MAN.
The world was Good as long as it was obedient to God.
i don’t understand please…
God barred them from eating it after they sinned so they would die.
so that means if they didn’t eat BEFORE they sinned they would have died too.
so death was there,in Eden, NO?
No it doesn’t show they would have died if they didn’t eat it before !
It means they would die if they didn’t eat it AFTER the fall, and nothing more.
The one does not prove the other.

Before the Sin:
They had the friendship of God, and he was with them every day. That alone was enough to preserve their life forever. Do you not know that Moses went up on to a mountain into the presence of God for more than a month with no food, and came back down with shining face and full of vigor and NOT starved? .

… It’s hard to believe that Adam would have received less than Moses!

Some types of death were known in the first creation; other’s were not.
If that’s complicated – too bad; the world, science, atoms are all complicated – but that world was all created before the Sin. If you can’t understand it all on the first try – that doesn’t mean the message is wrong; it means you don’t have God helping you, and you yourself haven’t learned enough yet. Be patient, treasure these things in your heart, and pray.
 
if Adam didn’t eat of it would he have died?

if he and Eve had to eat from it for eternal life, what about the animals?

did they have to eat from it, or did they die?

confusing me.
The best way to answer the question of eternal life for Adam is to start with the relationship between God the Creator and Adam the created human being.
For example, what are some of the necessary elements of their relationship?

An extensive source for information about our first parents is the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition* starting with paragraph 355. Do not expect a page-turner. From here to paragraph 421 takes time.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/355.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

What the Catholic Church does is to discern Divine Revelation, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which flows from the first three chapters of Genesis. For example, the salvific mission of Jesus Christ flows from Adam’s particular original sin in which he scorned his Creator. Adam’s free choice broke the relationship between humanity and divinity which resulted in very serious consequences. One consequence was that the material anatomy of humans would suffer death.
 
yes, but before they sinned, if they didn’t eat of it they would die, no?
otherwise the tree makes no sense, see.

and the animals?
I believe the Tree of Life is a metaphor and a prophecy of the Eucharist. My interpretation of the story in Genesis is that Adam and Eve, through their sin, cut themselves off from the grace of God and received the penalty of death. They did not need to eat of the Tree before they sinned because the life God gave them was already eternal and because they were in direct contact with Him. Remember it says that He walked with them in the Garden of Eden.

They were not allowed to eat from the Tree of Life (Christ) after they sinned because the time had not come yet for Christ to redeem the world. Today we eat from the Tree of Life when we receive Christ’s Body and Blood at Mass.
 
I believe the Tree of Life is a metaphor and a prophecy of the Eucharist. My interpretation of the story in Genesis is that Adam and Eve, through their sin, cut themselves off from the grace of God and received the penalty of death. They did not need to eat of the Tree before they sinned because the life God gave them was already eternal and because they were in direct contact with Him. Remember it says that He walked with them in the Garden of Eden.

They were not allowed to eat from the Tree of Life (Christ) after they sinned because the time had not come yet for Christ to redeem the world. Today we eat from the Tree of Life when we receive Christ’s Body and Blood at Mass.
Also when you think of it this way, as a metaphor for Christ, you’ll notice that in Genesis the Tree of Life was created before Adam and Eve…which means Christ’s sacrifice was already planned before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. The avenue for forgiving them was already planned before they even did anything wrong!! How’s that for an all-loving God?
 
Just a Note: It isn’t likely that God prevented them from entering the physical place called Eden. The Cherubim are the equivalent of “horses” for the Chariot of God – the same as which Elijah was taken up in; the same as is found in Ezekiel; and also which is somehow related to the Ark of The covenant upon which two cherubim are said to have sat covering the mercy seat; (Why these aren’t seraphim, I am uncertain…)

The remark about the tree of life, is that the Cherubim were moved off to the East of Eden; And a flaming sword given there to prevent Adam from finding the tree of life.

The issue here is that the cherubim (cf: Isaiah and the impure lips) surround and carry with them an altar which has fire upon it; The cherubim, are in effect, the walls which surround the altar, and they support the throne of God and the Seraphim above them.
This altar, throne, and cherubim are a mobile thing; not a stationary one.

There is no walled garden in the place known as Eden, nor evidence that I know of that there ever has been a PHYSICALLY walled place; In the Greek the word “Paradise” is used which comes from the Persian, and indicates at very least a garden of a rich man which is walled in, or protected by a barrier.

I’m more of the opinion from studying the issue, that the chariot of God was parked at the place called Eden at the time of the fall – and served as the walls which temporarily made the place a paradise. In this kind of interpretation – Adam was driven out, not so much from a physical garden – but from between the Cherubim where the altar is;
It is the altar, as Jesus indicates, which makes all things holy; and it is from an altar which eternal life is sent upon all man.

The cross, a tree, is also called an altar. Something to ponder…
I like the points you make 🙂 I’ve never really thought about this story in that way before.

My Bible reads [Genesis 2:21-24]:
And now the Lord provided garments for Adam and his wife, made out of skins, to clothe them. He said, too, Here is Adam become like one of ourselves, with knowledge of good and evil; now he has only to lift his hand and gather fruit to eat from the tree of life as well, and he will live endlessly. So the Lord God drove him out from that garden of delight, to cultivate the ground from which he came; banished Adam, and posted his Cherubim before the garden of delight, with a sword of fire that turned this way and that, so that he could reach the tree of life no longer.
The bolded parts indicated to me that Adam was forever banished from Eden, regardless of whether or not it was a physical place. Maybe my understanding is wrong, but it just seems that way to me.
 
thanks Vico for the reply.

so before A and E sinned, if they didn’t eat from the tree of life they’d have died?

were the animals immortal without having to eat of a tree?
I have never heard of immortal animals in Judeo-Christian tradition.

Immortality means freedom from death or the capacity to decay and disintegrate. A human, created in the image and likeness of God, is different than an animal. It seems that Adam and Eve, based upon scripture, could choose immortality,because they could eat of any tree. Except they choose the tree of knowledge of good and evil instead.

A human can have immortality when it is restored by Christ, as a promise, after the last day. Then they have freedom from bodily death and from separation of the soul from the human body.
 
I have never heard of immortal animals in Judeo-Christian tradition.

Immortality means freedom from death or the capacity to decay and disintegrate. A human, created in the image and likeness of God, is different than an animal. It seems that Adam and Eve, based upon scripture, could choose immortality,because they could eat of any tree. Except they choose the tree of knowledge of good and evil instead.

A human can have immortality when it is restored by Christ, as a promise, after the last day. Then they have freedom from bodily death and from separation of the soul from the human body.
they could have eaten from the tree of life after they sinned if God hadn’t blocked their way.
they could have been immortal after they sinned, but God took it away.

weren’t the animals immortal in Eden? i thought they were.otherwise there was death in Eden?
 
they could have eaten from the tree of life after they sinned if God hadn’t blocked their way.
they could have been immortal after they sinned, but God took it away.

weren’t the animals immortal in Eden? i thought they were.otherwise there was death in Eden?
We only know the story, not the way it would have been. And mankind is the subject, not animals, of the two dogmas of faith (from Ludwig Ott book):

In the present order of salvation death is a punishment for sin. (De fide.)
All human beings subject to original sin are subject to the law of death. (De fide.) D789

We do read this:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
they could have eaten from the tree of life after they sinned if God hadn’t blocked their way.
they could have been immortal after they sinned, but God took it away.

weren’t the animals immortal in Eden? i thought they were.otherwise there was death in Eden?
The effects of Original Sin were immediate.

In other words, the symbolic tree of eternal life, without suffering death, was gone in a flash. Think of it this way. Adam, by scorning His Creator, uprooted that tree of life so no one could eat from it.
 
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