The Trinity and Islam

[Sister_Amy]

you join all arguments related to Islam. Why are you dropping this argument when it is an Islamic belief? you care about what to wear and how many Muslims bow down at the same yet you do not want to discuss a theological debate that explains to you not only your Islamic belief, but what you used to not understand about the Trinity?

You overestimate yourself. You’ve shown that you don’t understand the argument you’re making. It has little at all to do with Islamic theology and only appears in books of creed because of a debate early in Islamic history, and heretical claims. It is not a foundation of Islam.

It’s also over your head, and over the heads of everyone else on the forum. So I’m not going to waste my time arguing it with you. I choose what discussions I want to participate in.

 

[inJESUS]

It has little at all to do with Islamic theology and only appears in books of creed because of a debate early in Islamic history, and heretical claims. It is not a foundation of Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

mr injesus i hope you have something to say when sister amy had accepted the so called defeat of mr agnos!

Amy says it is over us to understand Abi Hanifa’s quote yet does not want to discuss it

 

[famdigy]

inJESUS,

It’s clear Abi Hanifah believes the Qur’an to be uncreated, however allow me to point out that his quotes and personal beliefs are not a primary source from which Muslims derive their core beliefs

It’s like saying “A leading researcher in the field of medicine believes that autism is caused by vaccines”. At best it is a theory but not the standard by which the medical community establishes facts.

The book you took the quote from “Wasaya abi hanifa” I believe translates to “Abi Hanifas memoirs”. Thats not exactly a primary source for deriving religious doctrines

 

[inJESUS]

Famdigy,

whether it is a doctrine or not is irrelevent. Call it sunni doctrine/belief/opinion/statement, the importance lies in what is stated.

 

[famdigy]

In short, the concept of trinity doesn’t make sense to Muslims for the following reasons:

First - God is above time, space and matter and can not be bound by a material body.

Second - God has absolute authority and management of all things, everything is in need Him to come into existence. For him to have a physical body on earth would mean he is governed by the laws of nature. This is a contradiction of terms. Because whatever is in the heavens and earth is His, everything is obedient to Him and not the other way around.

Third The Qur’an refutes the trinity by stating that everything in the heavens and the earth is original in its design and creation without any previous model. For him to have a son would mean He was created out of his own model.

Before anyone interjects to say “he was born, not created” I’d like to add that statement also doesn’t make sense. Because everything born is created, “living material thing separates from itself a portion of its own matter, then gradually develops it until it becomes another individual of the same species similar to its parent; the offspring has the same characteristics and traits as the parent body had. This is what sonship and birth mean.”

 

[famdigy]

Famdigy,

whether it is a doctrine or not is irrelevent. Call it sunni doctrine/belief/opinion/statement, the importance lies in what is stated.

I think you missed my point here, muslims are not bound by what abi haifah believes or states. The fact that he stated it is irrelevant because his statement is not what we base our beliefs on.

 

[inJESUS]

I think you missed my point here, muslims are not bound by what abi haifah believes or states. The fact that he stated it is irrelevant because his statement is not what we base our beliefs on.

Famdigy, Sunni believe that the Word of Allah is uncreated to the point of calling a heretic the one who does not believe as such. It was not only Abi Hanifah who said this.

 

[famdigy]

Famdigy, Sunni believe that the Word of Allah is uncreated to the point of calling a heretic the one who does not believe as such. It was not only Abi Hanifah who said this.

inJESUS, It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith with his own insight and understanding, and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another who knows, simply because he has said it.

In other words, Abi Hanifahs views on the nature of the Quran is not binding on another Muslim. You’ll find that in many instances Abi Hanifah had contemporaries who did not agree with a lot of his views. you find that discrepancy also in this age, even among sunnis themselves.

 

[Irenaeus07]

Sister Amy;3633621:

still it is an Islamic belief.
please lower yourself to our intelligence standard and explain to us what does the quote mean by saying :

the Quran is the Speech of Allah, not Him yet not other than Him.

the Speech of Allah is eternal and self-existing.

And answer this simple question : if the Speech of Allah (not mushaf) is eternal and self-existing, and Allah is etrnal and self-existing, do they make 2 or One deity?

Well, you are definitely on to something? I don’t have the time right now, give me a couple of days. But the issue of the Speech of Allah was one of the major debates among the Muslims to the point where Muslims called other Muslims, Disbelievers to the point of imprisioning one another, even to the point of killing one another.

But when I have time, I will try and explain Abu Hanifa’s position on this, which is actually a belief held by majority of Muslims, the Sunni.

It is just as complicated as understanding the Trinity, in my opinion.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS, It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith with his own insight and understanding, and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another who knows, simply because he has said it.

this is a Sunni belief not limited to Abi Hanifa!

Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur’an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur’an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason.
livingislam.org/uncrq_e.html

 

[Delta2]

GOD :

The Father is pure fatherhood, the Son pure filiation, and the Holy Ghost pure love joint

 

[5pintLutheran]

That seems accurate but I’ve never read what the Quran says about the Trinity or the Nature of God for that matter.

Straight from the Koran:

5:72-73: They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

 

[swariffin]

Its confusing, because it makes NO sense.

And you have not answer me on how could there are 2 uncreated and eternal beings, one is God, and two is Quran. It does not make sense. It makes me think of a figure going back and forth destined to carry a book when-ever and where-ever he goes forever and ever.

 

[5pintLutheran]

In short, the concept of trinity doesn’t make sense to Muslims for the following reasons:

First - God is above time, space and matter and can not be bound by a material body.

Second - God has absolute authority and management of all things, everything is in need Him to come into existence. For him to have a physical body on earth would mean he is governed by the laws of nature. This is a contradiction of terms. Because whatever is in the heavens and earth is His, everything is obedient to Him and not the other way around.

Third The Qur’an refutes the trinity by stating that everything in the heavens and the earth is original in its design and creation without any previous model. For him to have a son would mean He was created out of his own model.

Before anyone interjects to say “he was born, not created” I’d like to add that statement also doesn’t make sense. Because everything born is created, “living material thing separates from itself a portion of its own matter, then gradually develops it until it becomes another individual of the same species similar to its parent; the offspring has the same characteristics and traits as the parent body had. This is what sonship and birth mean.”

Well, the Qur’an definately doesn not refute the trinity b/c it is a fallible book. The Qur’an was written 1-200 years after the death of Muhammed, so even if he was a prophet, he wrote nothing.

1. By your reasoning, God is above time and space and cannot have a material body, so therefore He is not the “allmighty.” Right?

2,If God cannot come into human form then He is not God, b/c he cannot do anything he desires, and that is not the case… God can do anything He wants, so to limit him by saying he cannot do something (with the exception of sin, and creating something greater than He, which is a contradiction in itself) is a fallable argument in the first place.

1. So… By your argument, God couldn’t subject himself to the laws of nature if he so chose? Again, you’re limiting what the “allmighty” can do! The only 2 things that God cannot do is 1. sin and 2. create a being more powerful than he. So… God if he wanted couldn’t create a physical body and inhabit it? You’re severly limiting what God can do. Allah must not be “allmighty” b/c if he was, then he could do anything he wanted, and not be limited, especially by fallible logic.

Understanding the verb ‘begat’ (and its variants beget, begotten) to denote ‘offspring’, is vital to the proper understanding of the Sonship of Christ. The heretical teaching that Jesus is a created being is due in part, I believe, to ignorance of this important word in the Bible. Jesus entered into human physical existence by entering into Mary’s womb (that is, she became ‘pregnant’ with him).
He was then physically born in just the same way as every human being is. The divinely engineered conception is a miracle that is beyond our comprehension. By it we understand and believe that Jesus entered the world fully human, without the intervention of man, but through the agency of woman, by the power of The Holy Spirit and in accordance with God’s plan. So, to reiterate, Jesus had no human father (and neither did Adam, the first man, who was created by God, and was also sinless to start with).

 

[planten]

Trinity is not true, not mentioned in the bible, not preached by Jesus. It is a later day made up story. Some one misled the christians. Now they are so far away from reality that they say God is One. At the same time they have three. So what are those three?? If they are not gods or mini gods??

Jesus is at the center of all the propblem. He was a prophet, a messenger and a faithful servant of God., no more. There have been prophets before Jesus. None of them taught anything about Trinity. Jesus himself did not do that. Then there is a multi-status for Jesus, as a man and as a God and son of man and son of God, all too much mixed up which can never be proved. It is un-natural, untrue.

Whatever he was, he was well. He came and did his duty and went away. The christians certainly lost the message of Jesus.

 

[inJESUS]

Yes Planten it’s about demi gods and polytheism and your book is correct. Indeed, the Word of Allah is a partner to Allah. Indeed, Allah is sufficient and does not need Wisdom so Allah is wisdomless. Indeed Mary used to eat food so how do we even dare make her a part of the Trinity or even divine? and Jesus used to eat food, how did we dare believe that Jesus did not use to eat food? you are correct Planten…the Quran is so correct that we are convinced Muhammad’s words are that of an all-knowing deity not a confused man and yes you are correct Allah is not truthful…when he says his word stands for ever he was just joking with us…so all the OT and NT references to the divinity of the Logos and Spirit of God must be a fabrication by humans and specifically monotheistic Jews and later Jesus continued their fabrication and explained it better because Allah was simply not very interested in his words but was actually waiting for Muhammad to tell us that Allah’s Word and Spirit are not partners to Allah and that Allah is self-sufficient so actlly he is wisdomless and spiritless.

 

[dolphinlove]

Trinity is not true, not mentioned in the bible, not preached by Jesus. It is a later day made up story. Some one misled the christians. Now they are so far away from reality that they say God is One. At the same time they have three. So what are those three?? If they are not gods or mini gods??

Jesus is at the center of all the propblem. He was a prophet, a messenger and a faithful servant of God., no more. There have been prophets before Jesus. None of them taught anything about Trinity. Jesus himself did not do that. Then there is a multi-status for Jesus, as a man and as a God and son of man and son of God, all too much mixed up which can never be proved. It is un-natural, untrue.

Whatever he was, he was well. He came and did his duty and went away. The christians certainly lost the message of Jesus.

oh please! give us a break with the same old boring comments you come up with. Find something original, this has been done to death!

 

[Glaucon]

Trinity is not true, not mentioned in the bible, not preached by Jesus. It is a later day made up story. Some one misled the christians. Now they are so far away from reality that they say God is One. At the same time they have three. So what are those three?? If they are not gods or mini gods??

Jesus is at the center of all the propblem. He was a prophet, a messenger and a faithful servant of God., no more. There have been prophets before Jesus. None of them taught anything about Trinity. Jesus himself did not do that. Then there is a multi-status for Jesus, as a man and as a God and son of man and son of God, all too much mixed up which can never be proved. It is un-natural, untrue.

Whatever he was, he was well. He came and did his duty and went away. The christians certainly lost the message of Jesus.

Again with the “perpetual ignorance” schtick. Man, if I had a quarter for each time people like you did that…

Obvious troll is obvious.

P.S. But Muhammad was a prophet too. If he were just a prophet, a messenger of God, why do you worship him so?

 

[dolphinlove]

Again with the “perpetual ignorance” schtick. Man, if I had a quarter for each time people like you did that…

Obvious troll is obvious.

P.S. But Muhammad was a prophet too. If he were just a prophet, a messenger of God, why do you worship him so?

Oh Glaucon, you got it soooo wrong…
Dont forget they worship the big black rock in mecca too