The Trinity and Islam

[AgnosTheist]

So was there really any point in me humouring your question when you were probably going to post this regardless of what I said?

I just wanted to know what gave you the idea that the quran gives a clear idea of what the trinity is. But it happened that the verse you posted were the exact verses that proves otherwise.

If those verses are calling the Trinity tri-theism as you say, then please explain how Christians could believe that God and Jesus are two *separate *gods, yet believe Jesus IS God? Think about that.

“God and Jesus”? My friend, Christians dont say such a thing. Much less that there are “two separate gods”. I was a Christian, and believe me their God is sort of like a guy with a split personality. 3 persons in one guy! Its scientific!

Qur’an clearly doesn’t think Christians believe in three gods.

now where did you get that idea?

Why so many anti-Islamic polemicists seem to think you can quote passages from the Qur’an over 40 verses apart yet expect people to assume they’re talking about the same thing I’ve never been able to comprehend. For the second time, this verse is not even talking about the Trinity (why else is there no mention of ‘three’?),

Look, Mohammad said Allah is one of three. So who are the other two gods? You tell me.

 

[Kadaveri]

I just wanted to know what gave you the idea that the quran gives a clear idea of what the trinity is. But it happened that the verse you posted were the exact verses that proves otherwise.

Well, firstly I’d ask you why would the Qur’an lay out a clear explanation of what the Trinity is? It’s not that kind of work, firstly it’s in an oral format, and such unnecessary detail would be counter-productive. Its purpose is not to explain Christian doctrine to anyone (it assumes you’re already familiar with it, that’s why it tells Muslims to investigate the religions that came before them), its purpose is to get out the message of the Oneness of God, His Prophets, and of the Last Day.

“God and Jesus”? My friend, Christians dont say such a thing. Much less that there are “two separate gods”. I was a Christian, and believe me their God is sort of like a guy with a split personality. 3 persons in one guy! Its scientific!

You’ve missed my point, what I was saying is that the Qur’an cannot possible be saying they believe in two (or three, for that matter) separate gods in 5:73, because 5:72 immediately before it shoots down them believing that Jesus IS God. I’m emphasising the ‘is’ for a reason. If the Qur’an says that Christians believe that Jesus is God (that they are one and the same in essence), then how could it possibly be saying in 5:73 that Christians believe in three ***separate ***gods? There really is no way to reconcile this. Also remember that in Islam, who Christians call ‘The Father’ is the only legitimate God, so when the Qur’an talks about ‘God’ (Allah) then that’s what it’s talking about, not a Trinitarian Godhead. So it’s perfectly legitimate in an Islamic context for the Qur’an to say that Christians believe Jesus is God. Also remember that it is historically true (and is still true in Orthodox Christianity especially) that The Father can legitimately be called ‘God’, since He is the only unproceeding hypostasis of the Trinity; so this isn’t an alien concept to Christianity either.

But if you’re not getting it, then let’s move on to the other ‘Trinity’ verse in the Qur’an, 4:171. The beauty of 4:171 is that it explicitly shoots down in unison the two formulas shot down individually in 5:72 and 5:73. First, read how the Nicene Creed talks about the Trinity:
*
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who **with the Father and the Son together is worshipped *…

See? Whatever you want to call them, hypostases, persons, personalities, essences, natures, what is being talked about here are three objects of worship. And in Arabic there is a word which translates just as ‘object of worship’, and so is perfect for use in describing the three hypostases of the Trinity: ilah.

Now if you read 4:171, you’ll note the standard translation in the refutation of Jesus being the Son of God and of God being ‘three’ is that ‘there is only one God’. This isn’t actually accurate. What the Qur’an says is Allahu ilahun wahidun, Allah meaning God, ilah meaning ‘object of worship’ (not just ‘god’ as it’s sometimes simplistically translated), and wahid meaning one. But in Arabic there are two different words for ‘one’, there is ahad, which means ‘one’ as in ‘only’, and then there is wahid, which means ‘one’ as in counting (one, two, three…). Usually in explaining God being One, the Qur’an uses the word ahad (i.e. there is only one God), such as in 112:1, but in 4:171, when refuting Jesus being the Son of God, it uses the word ‘wahid’ to describe God’s Oneness instead. Now, nowhere else does the Qur’an ever do this, so this is for a reason. But why? Why would the Qur’an say that *Allah *(which is by definition, singular, as the word has no plural) is one ‘god’? What does that mean exactly? In case you’re not following, this is essentially a repetitive statement, because *Allah *is by definition wahid.

But as explained, of course there is a reason why the Qur’an does this, because this is the one example where saying that *Allah *is *wahid *wouldn’t be a pointlessly superfluous statement. Because it’s refuting the beliefs of Christians, who are the only major religious group on Earth who believe that there is only one God (so saying *Allah *is *ahad * wouldn’t be contradicting their beliefs), yet believe that God consists of separate *alihah *(plural of ilah); so in this one instance it makes perfect sense to say that God is one ilah.

Put simply, if the Qur’an were saying Christians believe in three gods (which it never does do, which in my view is evidence enough that it’s not saying this, since as mentioned earlier in 16:51 it has no qualms in saying Zoroastrians believe in two gods, so why leave the verses discussing Christians at just ‘three’ if that’s what it meant?), then it would have refuted this believe by saying 'Allahu ahad’ (there is only one God), like is does in every other place in the Qur’an. Yet it doesn’t, instead it says ‘Allahu ilahun wahidun’ that God is only one object of worship, such a calculatively worded reply demonstrates an advanced understanding of the Trinity (not just that the people who believe in it are monotheists).

As a sidenote, this also shows that the Qur’an understands Jesus being the ‘Son of God’ as meaning him being God incarnate, not a physical son, otherwise it wouldn’t say that God is one ‘object of worship’ to contradict Jesus being the Son of God.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Well, firstly I’d ask you why would the Qur’an lay out a clear explanation of what the Trinity is? It’s not that kind of work, firstly it’s in an oral format, and such unnecessary detail would be counter-productive. Its purpose is not to explain Christian doctrine to anyone (it assumes you’re already familiar with it, that’s why it tells Muslims to investigate the religions that came before them), its purpose is to get out the message of the Oneness of God, His Prophets, and of the Last Day.

…

Pretty convoluted and you misinterpreted the nicene creed a bit. They are not worshiped as two different objects together but they are worshiped together as one entity.

What does this have to do with the OP? What is the logical reason for muslims not allowing for the possibility of God incarnating Himself? Are not all things possible with God?

Hey if I write a book saying that everything in the quran is corrupted and wrong and say this new book is the word of God does that mean the quran is incorrect? Isn’t that pretty much what muhammed did? When a statement you say contradicts everything that has been know and revealed before it for 1500 years, is it a logical argument to just say that all that previous knowledge has been corrupted? Where is the proof? Where is the proof that the Trinity is not the way God exists? For Christians the proof in the affirmative is the Gospels (which btw fulfills everything before it) and the fact a man was murdered 2000 years ago and many people went to horrible deaths with out recanting that He rose from the dead and performed many miracles?

Also if muslims are so encouraged to investigate other religions then how come other religions are so restricted and persecuted in muslim countries? It seems these countries are contradicting islamic principles. Or is this another instance where these countries are not truly muslims just like the many muslims who perpertrate acts of violence in the name of islam.

004.171
YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. ***Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. ***His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

 

[Kadaveri]

Pretty convoluted and you misinterpreted the nicene creed a bit. They are not worshiped as two different objects together but they are worshiped together as one entity.

I haven’t misinterpreted it; I understand that Christians believe that in worshipping one hypostasis of the Trinity they are essentially worshipping all three, but they still represent three objects of worship, and from an Islamic view only one of them (The Father) is deserving of worship. You’re free to disagree with this stance if you so choose, but that doesn’t mean you can accuse the author of ignorance.

The rest of your post is just hostility, so I’m not going to respond.

 

[dolphinlove]

No it’s not, it’s saying that Christians believe God (that is, Allah, The Father) to be one of three, i.e. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Although I accept that in isolation this verse could be interpreted as condemning tri-theism (although this would still be strange argument, as it never mentions three ‘gods’ whereas verses like 16:51 which reference Zoroastrian beliefs directly say ‘two gods’), looking at it together with other verses discussing the same topic show that this cannot be the case. The very verse preceeding this one (which the usual firebrand polemicists rarely quote when making such arguments) criticises Christians for believing that Jesus is God, now obviously if Christians believe Jesus IS God (i.e. they are one and the same), they can’t possibly believe in three separate gods? So no, 5:73 is not condemning tri-theism, nor is it calling Christians polytheists (the Qur’an has a specific label for polytheists, mushrikeen, and not once is it used in reference to Christians).

I read the surrounding passages and yet, funny enough, to me it is still calling us Christians polytheist. To me, its saying that Jesus is one God, the Father is one God etc.

 

[MH84]

“God and Jesus”? My friend, Christians dont say such a thing. Much less that there are “two separate gods”. I was a Christian, and believe me their God is sort of like a guy with a split personality. 3 persons in one guy! Its scientific!

Oh Agnos, how Ive waited for someone to bring this up!

Christians DO say “God and Jesus”. Many call the Father, “God” and the Son, “Jesus”. This is what I have been confused about!!
Please see these threads: Why is “God” interchangeable for “God the Father”, but not for the Son or the Holy Spirit? and Did Jesus believe He was serving a greater Being (His Father) than Himself? I see conflicting messages in the Bible.

In the Bible, the apostles only called the Father “God”, not really Jesus (except probably John 20:28). For example (I will add emphasis):

Luke 4:34
“Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

Luke 9:20
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God.”

Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Luke 24:20
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;

John 3:16
"For God (my note: not God the Father) so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Jesus seems to be saying that the Jews believed His Father was God. But if Jesus was God shouldn’t He have said “…We, whom you claim as your God…”.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 3:26
When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways." (the use of servant could be a reference to Jesus as the suffering servant of Isaiah, but again, there is the distinguishing between “God” and Jesus, or in this instance, "Servant or “Child”).

Acts 4:10
then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God (not God the Father, just God) raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[a] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

www.biblegateway.com

It seems in Christianity, the word means two explanations:

1. The Trinity
2. God the Father

I have been suspicious lately about this.

Terms like “God and Jesus”, are common, as a way of distinguishing God the Father and God the Son. Look at the above links as well if you want for more discussion.

 

[thedavidwilson]

The rest of your post is just hostility, so I’m not going to respond.

I bet you could think of a better way to avoid adressing the original post.

 

[inJESUS]

If Allah wants to refute the Trinity, He could have said :

They disbelieve who say Allah, His Wisdom and His Spirit are One! Lo, verily Allah is Wisdomless and Spritless!

here, am a human and i was able to formulate it correctly. Yet let’s see how the Quran puts it:

believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and **Allah is sufficient **for a Protector. S. 4:171

If Allah here means the Father, then why say the Father is One as if we believe the Father is more than One ? therefore the verse is not addressing the persons (Aqaneem), but the number of God.

And if Allah here means God, then we do believe God is One.

And Jesus being God has NOTHING to do with Allah not being sufficient.God does not need His Wisdom, God HAS Wisdom.

Lets check another text:

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, **and his mother **and everyone on earth? Allah’s is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. S. 5:17

If Allah means Father, we do not believe the Father is Jesus. If Allah means God (Trinity), we do not believe Jesus is the Trinity.

And see how Muhammad links God, Jesus and Mary!

Another one:

They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’ They are unbelievers who say, **'God is the Third of Three **. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. Will they not turn to God and pray His forgiveness? God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75

1-Again, we do not believe the Father is Jesus.
2- the Wisdom of God is NOT a partner to God.
3- do not say 3 because Allah is One? if Allah means Father then we already know this and if Allah means Trinity then we do believe the Trinity is One God.
4- Again, Muhammad links the Father, Jesus and Mary!

Another one:

And when God said, ‘O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, “Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God”? 5:116

Again, Father, Jesus and Mary ! 3 ayas so far about Trinity includin Mary. Not ONE correct representation of the Trinity : Father, Word, Spirit.

The truth is that - exalted be the Majesty of our Lord - HE has taken unto Himself neither wife nor son, S. 72:3

No comment.

In light of all this, how can we possibly believe an all-knowing deity has absolutly no clue of what he is talking about?

 

[Kadaveri]

I read the surrounding passages and yet, funny enough, to me it is still calling us Christians polytheist. To me, its saying that Jesus is one God, the Father is one God etc.

Again, but how could it be saying that when 5:72 says Christians believe Jesus is God?

inJesus - as has been said before in this thread, please give people the respect of reading and acknowledging their posts before repeating the exact same polemics over and over again. Either that or you’ve misunderstood my post so badly I don’t even know where to begin in correcting you.

 

[inJESUS]

Again, but how could it be saying that when 5:72 says Christians believe Jesus is

God? it says Christians believe God is Jesus. There is difference.

If Allah= Father, then we do NOT believe Jesus is the Father.
If Allah= Trinity , we do NOT believe Jesus is the Trinity.

Add to it that Mary has nothin to do with it.

Either that or you’ve misunderstood my post so badly I don’t even know where to begin in correcting you.

 

[inJESUS]

Kadaveri,

if you want to answer, please quote the ayas instead of giving their numbers. Thank you.

 

[Kadaveri]

it says Christians believe God is Jesus. There is difference.

The Qur’an doesn’t say Christians believe Jesus is ‘the Trinity’.

Add to it that Mary has nothin to do with it.

It’s already been established in this thread that the Qur’an doesn’t say Mary had anything to do with it in the first place. Please don’t repeat this argument without acknowledging the counter-argument that has been presented.

please do. My reply was short, i’d appreciate it if you adress it point by point.

Most of the points in your reply I’ve already presented counter-arguments to earlier in this thread. To be honest I really don’t have the patience to start all over again when you could much easier just read what I had to say.

Kadaveri,

if you want to answer, please quote the ayas instead of giving their numbers. Thank you.

I’ll post all the verses I’ll quoted so far as a reference for you.

4:171
…Do not say “three”: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one ilah: Glory be to Him above having a son…

5:72
Verily they disbelieve those who say: surely God is Christ the son of Mary…

5:73
Verily they disbelieve those who say: God is one of three, for there is no ilah except one ilah

5:116
And when God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say to men, take me and my mother as gods in detraction of God’?” He will say: "Glory be to You! Never could I say what I had no right…

9:31
They have taken as Lords in detraction of God their Rabbis and their Priests and Christ son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only one ilah. There is no ilah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner!

16:51
God has said: Take not two gods: verily He is one ilah…

36:60
Did I not enjoin on you, O Children of Adam, that you should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an open enemy?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Well, firstly I’d ask you why would the Qur’an lay out a clear explanation of what the Trinity is?

I think the Quran already made an attempt to do so…in saying that Allah is one of three. For how can one falsify something without explaining its details?

**So, if Allah is one of three, who are the other two? **

But if you’re not getting it,

yeah you completely lost me there.

Put simply, if the Qur’an were saying Christians believe in three gods (which it never does do,

who was the quran referring to when it talked about Jesus and Mary being worshipped as gods?

Yet it doesn’t, instead it says ‘Allahu ilahun wahidun’ that God is only one object of worship, such a calculatively worded reply demonstrates an advanced understanding of the Trinity (not just that the people who believe in it are monotheists).

advanced understanding? the problem here is that muslims insist they know the trinity more than the who people actually believe them. At the beginning you asked why its important to state the original meaning of the trinity. Well this it, the quran could have argued an advanced understanding of what the Trinity truly implies if it was able to explain what christians originally intended for the Trinity. Without the original, the supposed ‘advanced understanding’ only proves that it was rather a misunderstanding.

So who are the other two beside Allah according to the koran?

 

[inJESUS]

no, we believe that the Father and His Word (Jesus) are One, not that they are the same person.

Or if what you’re arguing is that the Qur’an is saying Christians believe in one God without internal distinction of the hypostases, then that can easily be shown incorrect by reversing the argument I’ve given above. If 5:73 says Christians believe God/The Father is one of three, then it also clearly understands that the three hypostases are distinct.

what am saying is that the verse in question is not about hypostates :

They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’ They are unbelievers who say, **'God is the Third of Three **.No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. Will they not turn to God and pray His forgiveness? God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. S. 5:70-75

I will re-quote the highlighted parts:

God is the Messiah: you say Allah = Father. In the Trinity doctrine, Allah is not Jesus. They are distinct. One but distinct.

whoso associates with God anything

the Quran immediately links Jesus’ divinity with partners. We do NOT believe Jesus is a partner. We believe Jesus is the Wisdom of God. The Wisdom of God is not a partner to God. If the author of the Quran understood it, he would NOT have linked the divinity of Jesus with *another *partner to God, hence a god. If the author understood the hypostates, he would NOT have made Jesus a partner .

'God is the Third of Three No god is there but One God : here the Quran is saying : the Father is not the third of three because the Father is one. We know this

his mother was a just woman

Muhammad is addin Mary here, not me, not Christians. In the same passage you quote as THE correct refutation of Trinity, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned but Mary instead.

The Qur’an doesn’t say Christians believe Jesus is ‘the Trinity’.

God to us is Trinity. We do not believe the Trinity is Jesus. The Quranic formula is wrong. And if it means Allah as Father, then we do not believe the Father is Jesus. We believe they are One yet distinct. On both accounts, the Quranic formula is theologically unorthodox.

It’s already been established in this thread that the Qur’an doesn’t say Mary had anything to do with it in the first place.

i presented THREE ayas linkin the Father, Jesus and Mary…

 

[Kadaveri]

I think the Quran already made an attempt to do so…in saying that Allah is one of three. For how can one falsify something without explaining its details?

Because the Qur’an is addressing itself to Christians here, it’s assuming that they already know what the Trinity is. There’s no need to explain the details of something to falsify it if the details are already known (scientific journals do this all the time), the Qur’an is an advanced text, it’s not supposed to be a beginners guide to Christian theology. Hence why the Qur’an tells Muslims to investigate the religions that came before them (because if they don’t, they will probably misunderstand the Qur’anic verses addressed to people of other religions).

To look at it another way, the purpose of the Qur’an is to get some very important messages out, that’s why it flows in such a ‘straight to the point’ manner. In these verses God is giving Christians a very important message, that the Trinity is wrong because of x and y, and if you reject this message you will go to Hell, you have been warned. It would be counter-productive to what the Qur’an is trying to achieve here by explaining the details of the Trinity to a people who know what it is in the first place.

**So, if Allah is one of three, who are the other two? **

The Qur’an doesn’t explicitly define who the ‘other two’ are. And there’s no need for it to do so, because firstly Christians should know what ‘three’ refers to; and that it’s the very concept of God consisting of three *ilah *that is being taken issue with, who the other two are is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter whether Christians believe in a Trinity of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, or The Father, John the Baptist and St Peter, it’s the very concept that is wrong, and what must be shot down.

yeah you completely lost me there.

If you could tell what exactly you don’t understand, I’ll do my best to explain it to you better.

who was the quran referring to when it talked about Jesus and Mary being worshipped as gods?

Christians. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox most definitely.

As explained earlier, to ‘take x as an ilah’ does not mean that you literally believe it to be a god. The Qur’an also criticises Christians for ‘worshipping’ their Priests in 9:31 in much the same way, and in 36:60 tells people to stop worshipping Satan (which again doesn’t mean the Qur’an is talking to literal Satanists here)

advanced understanding? the problem here is that muslims insist they know the trinity more than the who people actually believe them. At the beginning you asked why its important to state the original meaning of the trinity. Well this it, the quran could have argued an advanced understanding of what the Trinity truly implies if it was able to explain what christians originally intended for the Trinity. Without the original, the supposed ‘advanced understanding’ only proves that it was rather a misunderstanding.

The Qur’an can quite easily demonstrate the author had an advanced understanding of the Trinity by how it refutes it. As explained earlier (which you’ve made no attempt to argue against), refuting the Divine Incarnation and the Trinity together by saying ‘Allahu ilahun wahidun’ is only something someone with an advanced understanding of the Trinity would do. Someone ignorant of the Trinity (by thinking it describes tri-theism) would reply ‘Allahu ahad’.

 

[inJESUS]

No it’s not, it’s saying that Christians believe God (that is, Allah

, The Father) to be one of three, i.e. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Again, it is sayin that Christians believe Jesus is a PARTNER to God. A partner to God is not hypostates but polytheism. If the author had in mind the hypostates, he should not have talked about the second person as a partner. God knows pretty well that His Wisdom is not a partner to Him but is Him in essence, which is the hypostates.

Beside, the aya mentions nowhere the Holy Spirit but MARY in the same aya. Had the author the hypostates in mind, he should not have mentioned Mary.

The conclusion is :
1- no hypostates in this aya but polytheism : partner to God (Jesus) and Mary.
2- No mention of the true doctrine but mentioning Mary instead.

No, it says no such thing, this verse isn’t even talking about the Trinity, but of idolatry.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Because the Qur’an is addressing itself to Christians here, it’s assuming that they already know what the Trinity is. There’s no need to explain the details of something to falsify it if the details are already known (scientific journals do this all the time), the Qur’an is an advanced text, it’s not supposed to be a beginners guide to Christian theology.

but the koran already made that attempt, and made a mistake doing so. if you ask me, there is no need to even mention the ‘trinity’ at all. just stick with the argument that its wrong to worship Jesus as God. And the rest would fall like dominoes. Right?

As explained earlier (which you’ve made no attempt to argue against), refuting the Divine Incarnation and the Trinity together by saying ‘Allahu ilahun wahidun’ is only something someone with an advanced understanding of the Trinity would do. Someone ignorant of the Trinity (by thinking it describes tri-theism) would reply ‘Allahu ahad’.

You dont even have to know anything about the Trinity to argue against the Divine Incarnation. As the belief in the latter predates the former.

The Qur’an doesn’t explicitly define who the ‘other two’ are.

Originally Posted by AgnosTheist
who was the quran referring to when it talked about Jesus and Mary being worshipped as gods?

Well there you go. You insist that the trinity is about the worship of 3 objects. And thats the 2 other objects competing with the worship of allah. That proves that the Quranic understanding of the trinity is Allah+Jesus+Mary.

 

[Kadaveri]

no, we believe that the Father and His Word (Jesus) are One, not that they are the same person.

I didn’t say you believed they were the same person (in fact, I specificially expressed that the Qur’an wasn’t saying this), I was saying you believe they are the same God, that they are One. That’s what the Qur’an says Christians believe in 5:72, so there’s no way someone can accuse it of thinking Christians believe The Father and The Son to be two separate gods.

what am saying is that the verse in question is not about hypostates :

God is the Messiah: you say Allah = Father. In the Trinity doctrine, Allah is not Jesus. They are distinct. One but distinct.

Don’t you see you’re falling into the same trap of looking at 5:72 and 5:73 in isolation again? You can’t make the argument that the Qur’an says Christians believe the three hypostases are three separate gods by quoting 5:73, because 5:72 says Christians believe Jesus is God, that they are one. Likewise, you can’t make that argument that the Qur’an doesn’t recognise the distinctiveness of the three hypostases by quoting 5:72 (as you’re doing), because 5:73 says Christians believe The Father is one of three, so it recognises that the three are distinct (as well as being one).

the Quran immediately links Jesus’ divinity with partners. We do NOT believe Jesus is a partner. We believe Jesus is the Wisdom of God. The Wisdom of God is not a partner to God. If the author of the Quran understood it, he would NOT have linked the divinity of Jesus with *another *partner to God, hence a god. If the author understood the hypostates, he would NOT have made Jesus a partner.

I’m fully aware that Christians don’t believe worshipping Jesus is ascribing partners to God. You must stop reading the Qur’an through a Christian lense. In the Qur’an, Jesus is NOT divine, and worshipping something which is not divine (i.e. not God) is exactly what ascribing partners to God is.

It’s not that the Qur’an doesn’t understand that Christians believe Jesus is divine, obviously not because 5:72 condemns them for believing this, it’s that the Qur’an *disagrees *with Jesus being divine. Disagreeing with a proposition does not mean you didn’t understand it.

God to us is Trinity. We do not believe the Trinity is Jesus. The Quranic formula is wrong. And if it means Allah as Father, then we do not believe the Father is Jesus. We believe they are One yet distinct. On both accounts, the Quranic formula is theologically unorthodox.

Again, the Qur’an never says Jesus is the Trinity, you’re setting up a very strange strawman.

5:72 is not the Qur’an failing to recognise the distinctiveness of the three hypostases, because *in the very next verse *it mentions them. You cannot force an interpretation on 5:72 that makes the Qur’an errant when the very next verse shows this interpretation cannot be correct.

i presented THREE ayas linkin the Father, Jesus and Mary…

Again, I’ve already presented counter-arguments to these claims in this very thread. I will not write it up all over again. If you want to discuss this then address those counter-arguments, don’t repeat the original argument.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Because the Qur’an is addressing itself to Christians here, it’s assuming that they already know what the Trinity is. There’s no need to explain the details of something to falsify it if the details are already known (scientific journals do this all the time), the Qur’an is an advanced text, it’s not supposed to be a beginners guide to Christian theology.

but the koran already made that attempt, and made a mistake doing so. if you ask me, there is no need to even mention the ‘trinity’ at all. just stick with the argument that its wrong to worship Jesus as God. And the rest would fall like dominoes. Right?

As explained earlier (which you’ve made no attempt to argue against), refuting the Divine Incarnation and the Trinity together by saying ‘Allahu ilahun wahidun’ is only something someone with an advanced understanding of the Trinity would do. Someone ignorant of the Trinity (by thinking it describes tri-theism) would reply ‘Allahu ahad’.

You dont even have to know anything about the Trinity to argue against the Divine Incarnation. As the belief in the latter predates the former.

The Qur’an doesn’t explicitly define who the ‘other two’ are.

Originally Posted by AgnosTheist
who was the quran referring to when it talked about Jesus and Mary being worshipped as gods?

Well there you go. You insist that the trinity is about the worship of 3 objects. And thats the 2 other objects competing with the worship of allah. That proves that the Quranic understanding of the trinity is Allah+Jesus+Mary. .

 

[inJESUS]

In these verses God is giving Christians a very important message, that the Trinity is wrong because of x and y,

it is the x and y we are having problem with. If you tell me fat is bad because you become obese, i understand it…but if you tell me fat is bad because you get crazy, then i have the right to question the knowledge of the person telling me this. When Muhammad tells me the Trinity is wrong because God has no partner and Mary used to eat food, my reply is : :ehh:

The Qur’an doesn’t explicitly define who the ‘other two’ are. And there’s no need for it to do so, because firstly Christians should know what ‘three’ refers to; and that it’s the very concept of God consisting of three *ilah *