The Trinity and Islam

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AgnosTheist:
but the koran already made that attempt, and made a mistake doing so. if you ask me, there is no need to even mention the ‘trinity’ at all. just stick with the argument that its wrong to worship Jesus as God. And the rest would fall like dominoes. Right?
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Ah, but if you read the text carefully you’ll see that the Qur’an never does mention the Trinity, at least not explicitly. It only ever refers to God being ‘three’ and such a belief being wrong because God is one ilah. Indeed, that’s all that’s necessary to get the message to Christians that they shouldn’t believe in the Trinity.

But sticking purely to arguing against the Divine Incarnation, no, more than that is necessary. Even if you did get the message to people that it’s wrong to believe that Jesus is the human Incarnation of God, you’re only halfway there. As 5:72-73 concisely lays out, the Trinity is a two-part formula, that Jesus is the Son of God, and that God has three distinct hypostases. If you refute only the Divine Incarnation, you’ve still left the very dangerous idea that God can consist of more than one ilah unchallenged, this believe is also heresy according to Islam. It would be unjust for God to send people to Hell for believing in something which He decided not to tell them in His last revelation to mankind was heretical. Thus both the Divine Incarnation and God consisting of three ilah are condemned in the Qur’an, both separately and together, to make the message so clear no one can claim they didn’t understand it upon receiving it.
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AgnosTheist:
You dont even have to know anything about the Trinity to argue against the Divine Incarnation. As the belief in the latter predates the former.
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This is true. In fact for the benefit of one ‘Christian’ who didn’t believe in the Trinity but still believed that Jesus was God I once constructed a Qur’anic argument against the Divine Incarnation without ever touching the Trinity. Likewise, you don’t need to know anything about the Divine Incarnation to argue against the Trinity. The Qur’an does both. But both doctrines whether held together or separately are deeply heretical in Islam.
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AgnosTheist:
Well there you go. You insist that the trinity is about the worship of 3 objects. And thats the 2 other objects competing with the worship of allah. That proves that the Quranic understanding of the trinity is Allah+Jesus+Mary.
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No it isn’t. Because (again), 5:116 isn’t even talking about the Trinity, just as 9:31 isn’t talking about the Trinity, and 36:60 isn’t talking about Satanists. Don’t pretend evidence against your position hasn’t been posted if you’re not going to address it.
 
addendum:

there are no catholics nor orthodox who believe or worship mary as God.
 
Kadaveri said:
I didn’t say you believed they were the same person (in fact, I specificially expressed that the Qur’an wasn’t saying this), I was saying you believe they are the same God, that they are One. That’s what the Qur’an says Christians believe in 5:72, so there’s no way someone can accuse it of thinking Christians believe The Father and The Son to be two separate gods.

i understand your point. You are saying : the Quran says you believe Jesus and the Father are One, so how can it say you believe in 3 gods?

Here comes the problem of misunderstanding hypostates, if you believe it is about it… how can they be one yet Jesus is a partner?if you say the author knows the Father is distinct from Jesus yet are One, from where does the author learn that this leads to partners? or that is it about joining a human partner to God? and why say they both used to eat food in order to refute that Mary and Jesus are divine? we know Mary used to eat food, and we know Jesus is human as well, we do NOT believe He is only divine, so why would the author refute His divinity by saying He used to eat food as if we believe He is only divine?
Don’t you see you’re falling into the same trap of looking at 5:72 and 5:73 in isolation again? You can’t make the argument that the Qur’an says Christians believe the three hypostases are three separate gods by quoting 5:73, because 5:72 says Christians believe Jesus is God, that they are one. Likewise, you can’t make that argument that the Qur’an doesn’t recognise the distinctiveness of the three hypostases by quoting 5:72 (as you’re doing), because 5:73 says Christians believe The Father is one of three, so it recognises that the three are distinct (as well as being one).
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Kadaveri said:
that God has three distinct hypostases.
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you are stretching it. lets keep it quranic: mohammad simply said “Allah is one of three”.
Kadaveri said:
If you refute only the Divine Incarnation, you’ve still left the very dangerous idea that God can consist of more than one ilah unchallenged
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but theres no other doctrine beside the Trinity which says that God can consist of more than one ilah. So refuting the Divine Incarnation is enough.
Kadaveri said:
Likewise, you don’t need to know anything about the Divine Incarnation to argue against the Trinity.
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nah, that wont work. not the Trinity of the Nicene Creed.
Kadaveri said:
No it isn’t. Because (again), 5:116 isn’t even talking about the Trinity, just as 9:31 isn’t talking about the Trinity, and 36:60 isn’t talking about Satanists. Don’t pretend evidence against your position hasn’t been posted if you’re not going to address it.
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5:116 fills the gaping hole left by 5:73 (the two mystery gods beside allah). Both are within the context of idolatry, within the context of what Christians have as objects of worship.

The only reason you are denying this is because you know better than Mohammad of what the Trinity is. If you are completely ignorant of this fact, then there is no reason why you would not make the conclusion that according to the quran christians make Allah as one of three beside Jesus & Mary. Right? Be honest.

Anyway this is another error. For Catholics dont even worship Mary as God! Thats a clear misrepresentation of christianity. Done out of pure ignorance.
 
I think i understand the startin point of Kadaveri.

He says that since Jesus is a human, then automatically the belief in Him is ascribing partners to God and is hence polytheism.

Yet, if this is the Quranic view, it is still wrong. The humanity of Jesus has nothing to do with the Trinity. God created everything by His Word and Spirit. The Word took a human flesh 2000 years ago. The second does not deny the first, incarnation does not deny the Trinity.

Jesus used to eat : we know. This has nothing to do with divinity.
Jesus died as all prophets before Him: this has nothing to do with divinity.

If Allah refutes the Trinity, it means Allah should refute the Trinity per se. That is, Allah should refute that He has Wisdom and Spirit.

The arguments presented in the Quran are against Jesus’ divinity and as such are linked to the refuting the Trinity, which is again, wrong.
 
The trinity is refuted, you either belive in One God or you dont…

There is no point trying to do magic maths, trying to make 3 into One…

Muslims and Christinas will have to agree to disagree
 
Rayaan said:
The trinity is refuted, you either belive in One God or you dont…

our creed in the belief in One God was known centuries before Muhammad.

what do you think the Quran is refuting exactly?
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Rayaan said:
The trinity is refuted, you either belive in One God or you dont…

There is no point trying to do magic maths, trying to make 3 into One…

Muslims and Christinas will have to agree to disagree
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“refute” means “to prove wrong by argument or evidence”. the Quran hasnt really proved anything, except reveal that it has the wrong idea about the Trinity being Allah + Jesus + Mary.
 
AgnosTheist said:
“refute” means “to prove wrong by argument or evidence”. the Quran hasnt really proved anything, except reveal that it has the wrong idea about the Trinity being Allah + Jesus + Mary.
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Agnos, before Kasaveri or others tell us Mary is not part of the Trinity, let’s stick to the correct Trinity :

Does Allah refute he has Wisdom?
Does Allah refute He has Spirit?

if the refutation will only target Jesus’ divinity, it is another proof the Quran is wrong because the Trinity exists even if Jesus did not come as a man.
 
Mohammad did not understood the Trinity

Qu’ran says clearly this :

“5.116”:
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

Who is Isa ?! is not Jesus ?!

And Marium ? is not Mary mother of Jesus ( Isa ) ?

“Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah”

What does this mean ?!

For me is clear as water that Mohammad thought that Christians believed that Trinity was :

Father(Allah) + Jesus + Mother

And that’s wrong, never, never, never, Christians believed Trinity to be FATHER+JESUS+MOTHER

Was the Collyridian sect that had that vision of Holy Trinity

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridians

And there was a big opponent of one Father of The Church about that heresy :

Epiphanius - year 300-400

Guess where did that heresy began :

medbib.com/Thrace and medbib.com/Scythia

medbib.com/Collyridianism
 
Rayaan said:
inJESUS;3620626:
But if you say Jesus was God/Gods son/and there was some sort of spirit which was also God Then that is not belief in one god
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i explained what all this means on the first page. Allah, Word, Spirit One God. Please read and ask what you do not get.
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The problem is your not accusing us of not understanding the Trinity, you are accusing us of not being able to count.

1+1+1=3…

It does not equal ONE, not now, not tomorrow, not yesterday…

The reason why you believe this is because of what I believe to be the corruption that seeped into Christianity AFTER the passing of Jesus.

People began to deify the messenger, glorify the messenger giver rather then the message sender and in an attempt to clarify what they did not understand they innovated and aspects like the Trinity, Christmas Day, Christmas trees were born… It this all began because there was no completed bible for such a long time
 
Rayaan said:
The problem is your not accusing us of not understanding the Trinity, you are accusing us of not being able to count.

1+1+1=3…

It does not equal ONE, not now, not tomorrow, not yesterday…
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See you in the mirror

Human beings are triunes also, we have Sould ( our databank, what we are ), body and spirit

Don’t be blind and foolish, IF YOU ARE JUST ONE…

Where does Allah GET YOUR DATABANK BACK ?

YOU ARE ONE…YOUR BODY ONLY

**kaput !!! your databank is lost forever **

Face it, your religion just don’t know, doesn’t have a theological answer to some of the mysteries of God

You die, you finished, because you’re not 1+1+1, just a single body
 
Delta2 said:
See you in the mirror

Human beings are triunes also, we have Sould ( our databank, what we are ), body and spirit

Don’t be blind and foolish, IF YOU ARE JUST ONE…

Where does Allah GET YOUR DATABANK BACK ?

YOU ARE ONE…YOUR BODY ONLY

**kaput !!! your databank is lost forever **

Face it, your religion just don’t know, doesn’t have a theological answer to some of the mysteries of God

You die, you finished, because you’re not 1+1+1, just a single body
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what is the difference between the human spirit and the human soul?
 
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